Neil Gubitz, Tampa Snake Pit (Good Guy)

[ms_terese]

Actually, unless Neil promised someone that the animal was something it was not, then he did nothing wrong either. Neil can ask any price he wants for his animals.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

There is a concept called good business ethics. If a seller of an animal attempts to sell it for - lets say - 4 times the amount it normally sells for - and then in that attempt does anything to over glorify that particular snake or anything to take advantage of the potential buyer - then, as I see it, it was an unethical sale. Furthermore, in my opinion, selling an item at high above normal market value is unethical on its own if for no other reason than you are taking unfair advantage of an apparently ignorant person (the buyer) who would pay that price when lower prices are readily available. Sure it can be done, but in my estimation, the person who boosts up the price in this manner is being less than ethical.

Of course I do not condone threats of violence direct or implied - and in my opinion I do believe the poster made such threats; nor do I condone the nasty name calling in these forums (I like to do mine in person) by the latest person who is PO'd at Mr. Gubitz. Yet just because the buyer got PO'd and expressed himself in an, in my opinion, inappropriate way, does not mean that the accused selling party is or was not unethical regarding this particular sale. Of course, there is probably not enough evidence presented here to make up one's mind on a legal front regarding this most recent accusation; however there is more than enough information about this and alleged prior sales by the accused to allow someone to form an opinion. I have my opinion, and it is that good business ethics have again probably taken a back seat to sales.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[Glenn Bartley]

I have my opinion, and it is that good business ethics have again probably taken a back seat to sales.

Neil sent me an email with his explanation of what happened. I now have to retract my abnbove opinion, and until I get more info, I would have to say I am neutral on this one. There is one thing that makes me wonder if the sale was unethical or ethical and that was the post by Kevin who said in essence that he was surprised at the high price at which Neil sold this snake. Maybe, as Neil pointed out to me, the snake was sold by Kevin to Neil at a low price. I am going to back off on my opinion on this one, until I see more info about it.

As for Neil's comment to me in his followup email that he hopes I looked at the pic of the snake on his site "so that I know what I am talking about this time' well that sort of sounds like the same old Neil to me. I knew what I was talking about all along, and that was ethics, not the animal in particular but how it was sold.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[ScottsReptiles]

Ivan, if you only wanted to reach Neil, and you didn't want thte members of the BOI to respond . . . Why post here at all? His email address is posted all over the net from his own ads and such. Take your private conversation someplace where it can remail just that . . . private.

Because he is bitter that Neil was as good of a salesman as he was and sold that snake for much more then he could have gotten. Can you say buyers remorse?

 

[JungleHabitats]

with out knowing the prices

its hard to say wether the price markup was fair or not but from the post Kevin made of the snake in question being

6. Neil purchased the dark neonate from us at what we felt was a fair price for cbb green trees and the exact same price our other neonates were available for, with the exception of a designer clutch bred for high yellow.

then to say

10. We were told by several people attending the show the more than double price tag Neil had posted on the animal.

11. On Sunday, Neil informed us the animal sold at his exorbitant price with no additional details

now with those words stated IMO it seems that Neil may have put a very hefty pricetag on it .. is that wrong ? well it would depend on what the promise of gentics would be on that price tag .. if he informed the buyer of something that just wasnt and sold it for that with the pretence it was more then what kevin sold it to him at then i would only have to say it was wrong . However if the buyer would have done some asking around and been a lil more informed then he obvioulsy was he would have had more ammo to go into the shooting match with then he apparently did .So in a nut shell i see nothing Kevin did wrong here other then selling his snake to Neil who may or may have not properly represented it at. But since neil burnt his bridge here long ago i guess this can only at this time unless someone was to post neils sideof this be chaulked up to buyers remorse after seeing what he had done and could have got at a lower price ... and the threats well fort hose they should be backed off on due to one day you could possibly write a check your (_/_) couldnt cash you might want to actually watch the local news for that as people dont always go forthe " school yard " fight nowadays.... and last time i looked ther were no real "super heros" left in the world today that were not prone to lead poisining..

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

If memory serves, I believe Neil has the Webslaves permission to post on threads that directly concern him. Of course that privilege may no longer be in effect given Neils frequent bannings.

 

[dochstader]

Kevin barnett

kevin the biggest problem i have with you is that i attempted to question you about the aniaml in question 2 different times.when you were not busy with any costumers i approached you.you suddenly became busy stating it was on the website and wouldn't speak of it.That to me is wrong.I checked out your website.you have gorgeous animals,though i could not find any info about the clutch.It took quit a long time to download.I approached you again sunday and i heard you speaking about it.you said something to the effect that you could not believe neil would do that.i in my complete stupidity took that as neil was letting that animal go for that.Yea i must be a complete moron.upon hearing you say this,i decided not to question you any further and because you obviously didn't want to explain anything about it anyways.that is where you were in the wrong in my opinion.You can not control what someone else does.that is true,but if somebody were to question me in the same boat i would have pulled him aside and told him exactly what he would be getting and what you might offer him.Especially if i produced the animal.
i don't have a signif. other i think i know who your talking about though.

Ivan Dochstader

 

[dochstader]

another note

Kevin if you woer to explain a little instead of brushing me aside i would have trusted you.When i approached you the third time after i made the purchase and i overheard you say neil was the "ultimate dealer"I took that the wrong way in that neil is a good dealer.i guess i have to wise up.My friends which helped me find out about the animal were all dumbstruck as well when they learned.Mite phase wamena is what it was sold as.neil didn't give bother to do or say anything that would have made someone think otherwise.this is a gorgeous animal though regardless.I would have given him twice that much if he were to ask from what i believed the animal was.Though if you would have taken a few minutes to tell me what was up with it i would have spent the money on you.In my opinion you have some awesome animals the best ones there.why could you not take two minutes and tell me what it was niel was offering.I waited until all your patiently until all your customers left.you laughing and talking with a friend.i approached you and asked if you produced it.you got real quiet and said yes.i asked if i could see pictures or anything about the parents.you suddenly got very busy started walking off like i wasn't there and said just pull up my website.It's on my website.I had to ask someone else where your website was.they told me to take one of your cards which were there.I again approached you about you again avoided the subject and simply stated it was an awesome snake and the other one you produced similiar to it was alot more awesome and then you started telling me that your wife would be upset if you let it go.you again were avoiding the subject.I took that as either you really wanted the snake back and didn't want other people interested in it or maybe you just knew i was a newbie and didn't want to waste your time telling me about the animal in question.Kevin i'm sure your a nice guy and i know you have nice clean gorgeous animals.You could of however given an ounce of feedback on this before it went down.after it went down you gave all the feedback anyone would have ever wanted and noone was even asking at this point.whats up with that.


Ivan Dochstader

 

[Stardust]

If memory serves, Neil was allowed at one time to come on here to defend himself. Because of a personal PM between Neil and another party and the party taking offense Neil became permantly banned. I don't believe he can come on here to defend himself at all.
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong here????

 

[Darin Chappell]

"In my opinion you have some awesome animals the best ones there."

If that's how you felt about the situation, Ivan, why not just buy something from Kevin and cut the middleman out of the picture completely? Say what you want about Neil (I sure do), but one thing I can promise you no one says about him is that sells his stock too cheaply.

The very definition of Fair Market Value is whatever some one is willing to pay. The fact that you paid too much is sad, and it may be that Neil was charging way too much. However, it seems to me that whatever a person wants to charge for his animals, so long as they are not misrepresented, is fine, and the market will dictate his successfulness. You say he did misrepresent the animal, and he may have, I suppose. But I still fail to see how that reflects badly on Kevin.

 

[dochstader]

darin

Yes you are right i was way out of line with Kevin.I don't excuse the fact that he didn't help me when i asked him.I don't exactly know why I'm sure he will explain.that's why i didn't buy his animals cause i didn't know.this doesn't give me reason to threaten anybody.some times in a fit of rage a man will do and say some foolish things.I am man enough to admit this I was wrong and i'm sure Kevin is man enough to forgive.I consider myself a good guy even though i lose my temper some times.Kevin isn't part of this and no i'm not going to physically hurt neil and it's all good and if my hateful statements towards kevin are removed that would probably be the best thing.I am a little upset with Kevin but he didn't deserve what i said about him.I realized this when i cooled down a bit.I am cool headed as of now.I don't really care about neil or what he does.I know in the end he will have to answer to the same man that i answer to.If neil was drowning i would dive in to save him.i wouldn't be sending warm fuzzies to his hospital bed or anything but i would save him cause i know it would be the right thing to do.

Ivan Dochstader

 

[Stardust]

I am posting this Email with Neils' permission:



Ro.... here is the email I sent to RICH Z. in hopes that he would either
post it or forward it to Ivan.... he politely refused because he doesn't
want to get in the middle of this (understandibly).... if YOU want to
post it.... be my guest.... You're right, I promisd Rich I wouldn't post
anymore, that's why he is being gracious enough to let me at least read
what's going on....


Ivan.... I have no idea what you're talking about??.... I bought that
Black Wamena from Kevin on Friday afternoon when he first put it out....
I had never seen a more beautiful chondro in my life.... It was CB, f1
and solid black, with a blue vertebral stripe, red eyes and belly, and
the mite specks were just starting to show up. (Kevin even pointed those
out to me?)... I thought Kevin sold it DIRT CHEAP for what it was.... (I
bought it for $500 and sold it to you for $1200, and I STILL thought
that was a STEAL for what it was).... he gave me all the particulars
about the parents (that I relayed to anybody who asked), when it was
born and what it could "possibly" grow up to look like.... I bought it
while there were still about two other people huddling trying to decide
if THEY wanted it.... I didn't even give it a second thought, I put my
money where my mouth was and bought it!.... I told all the "big boys"
that came to see it, everything I knew about it and where I got it
from.... they ALL thought I was selling it too cheaply and I should have
had a $5K price tag on it.... I told them point blank that I got it for
a good price and I was selling it at a good price.... I didn't tell them
anything that was false or misleading.... when they asked me what I
thought it would turn into as an adult, I plainly told them, "I didn't
know and didn't care"!.... It was what it was??.... I had a LOT of
people and dealers talk to me about that snake on Saturday (there is a
picture of the snake on my site in the "Animals Sold Since 02-01-03 link
on the left column).... Sunday morning, you come up to me and made me an
offer for the snake, without asking one question! I accepted your offer
without hesitation, because I figured you've already asked everybody
else about the snake and you, too, thought it was a steal!.... We shook
hands, and you left my table with a smile on your face!....Had you asked
me anything, I would have talked to you for hours about that animal
because I absolutely loved it!.... At 4:30 on Sunday, I started packing
up to leave the show, I loaded my animals in my HOT truck and then
realized I was blocked in.... I couldn't get out.... I just happened to
know who's van was blocking me in, so I ran around like a maniac trying
to find him before all my animals died of heat stroke.... I finally
found him and he moved his van and I left.... had I seen you in the
parking lot, I would have gladly thanked you for your purchase and asked
you to remember me when you had offspring in a couple of years.... I
didn't deceive you in any way, shape or form!.... As soon as you bought
it, I DID go over to Kevin and tell him that I sold it (and what I sold
it for) and that I KNEW he sold it to me too cheaply.... what he told
his friends was none of my business.... Had you been there Friday when
Kevin put it out for sale, YOU could have got it for the price I did....
that's the whole reason that most of us are in this business.... to make
money and produce nice animals for the future.... why you think I ripped
you off is beyond me.... you, yourself said that all your friends were
looking out for you??.... You thought that snake was as beautiful as I
did??.... Was I supposed to sell it to you for exactly what I paid for
it??.... Come on Ivan, be reasonable??.... You got a gorgeous chondro at
a great price.... Kevin was actually selling a normal-looking Yellow
chondro for the same price as you bought the Black one for???.... If you
saw them together, would you have bought the Yellow one or the Black
one??.... Don't let a couple of people who "think" you paid too much
disuade you from the knowledge that you got a great deal on a great
snake!.... If you want to discuss this further (without the animosity),
you are ALWAYS welcome to call me at 1-813-908-1869, and we can discuss
it to your heart's content....
Neil Gubitz
TampaSnakePit.com

....Neil %>))


Neil Gubitz (owner)
Tampa Snake Pit

813-908-1869 (NEW PHONE NUMBER)

Click on our **NEW** Website below
for "Tampa Snake Pit's"
COMPLETE PRICELIST
with PICTURES of every animal!!....
and the BEST GUARANTEE IN THE BUSINESS!

 

[dochstader]

neil or stardust or whoever

neil you would make a great salesman,why on earth are you in the reptile buisness.I'm not going to reply to your statements cause you could talk your way out of hell i'm sure.I will tell you this though.making a profit is great but making a fool out of someone in the process is pure wrong.I guess you can call me a fool.Only you and god know in your heart that what you did was right or wrong and only you will have to answer for it.not me. I'm done with this neil.I got an awesome snake from a great breeder and you doubled your money with no work involved.Good job!


Ivan Dochstader

 

[dwedeking]

Is your issue with the amount you paid for it or that you feel it was misrepresented?

I have no liking for Neil, but you can't fault him for seeing an animal that was unique at the show and make the most of the opportunity. That is the way of business (has been since the beginning of time). 1/2 of making money is being in the right spot at the right time. If there are no others of this type then there is not a guage to compare what market value would have been except for the limits that somone would pay.

If you don't feel it was represented properly that is another issue but it doesn't seem like it was represented as anything but unique.

 

[ScottsReptiles]

So let me try to get this right...

you post here not wanting to tell anyone what happened

you post here.. in a discussion forum.. not wanting to discuss anything

then

you post here without the intent to even reply to the person you are complaining about.

My question is, why did you even post this thread?

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Ivan

I am genuinely curious. Your main point of aggravation with Neil seems to be that he bought the animal and then immediately resold it to you for a substantial profit. You have hinted at misrepresentation but you have not come right out and said that the animal was misrepresented. You have repeatedly stated that the animal is exceptional and, I believe you also stated that you would have paid considerably more for it if necessary.

I find myself in the somewhat uncomfortable (and unprecedented)position of defending Neil. (God, I never thought I would actually type those words). Lets run this down:

1.) You are happy with the animal

2.) You would have paid more if necessary

3.) You feel the animal is of high quality

Bottom line, what's your beef?

While I would never personally buy and sell animals like Neil does, he quoted a price, you countered, and he accepted your offer. If his profit margin is your only complaint, you had no business ever starting this discussion.

Let me complete this by saying that Neil has a rather unsavory rep in this business based on numerous events of his own doing. In this instance however, unless he actually told you point blank the animal was something it's not, you are way out of line.

Kevin is another matter. You are in no way his customer and it is not his responsibility to police how people who buy his animals conduct themselves. He is under no obligation either implied or specific to you and you owe he and Charlotte an unconditional abject apology for even bringing their good names into this discussion.

 

[dochstader]

john

john i know you are a little confused and i don't want to get into the details because i really don't want to get into hearsay.I had people check the snake out .They felt misleaded after they found out.so in turn i felt misleaded. maybe they didn't ask the right questions.i can't say cause i wasn't with them.the reason for this thread wasn't really intended to bash neil.It was really to inquire Kevin why he wouldn't address the subject when i approached him several times.Maybe in Kevins mind he did.In my mind Kevin was avoiding it for a reason.I wasn't sure how to start a thread.I don't have much proof except that it says MITE PHASE WAMENA on the tank.And no i wouldn't have spent twice as much for the animal unless It was all mite phase.i'm not sure how i worded that before but that is what i meant.I don't know enough about it to make that arguement.maybe it will turn out more then what i paid for it maybe not.i do not like that neil doubled his money at my expense.If he truly loved the animal and needed some money that would be good for me.obviously he was just triing to make a quick buck buying the animal one day and doubling the price the next.If you think that is good buisness practice then so be it.i don't believe that is a good practice in my opinion.i could see maybe him making respectible profit.that was beyond respectible in my opinion.I was very aggravated when my friends were felt misleaded.All in all this was to inquire kevin about why he avoided me about the subject when i asked on a few different occasions.If i were to know exactly what it was i would have bought 2 of them from Kevin and then i would have made neil a fair offer so he could of made a good profit say $200 or so.If he would of refused that offer i would of been ok with it and got another one from Kevin.I would have thought neil was a scammer regardless.I said some nasty things about Kevin so i don't really expect him to reply.I was having a spell.anyway this was my real intentions about this whole thing to ask kevin why he wasn't very helpful.Was it because he knew what neil was doing was wrong and didn't want to get caught up in any of it.this is how i took it.If that is the case i don't agree with the way he handled it.i would of been very up front with anybody that asked and if neil had a problem with it i would tell him flat out that i wasn't going to lie or mislead anybody for him.I was avoided and i only have one snake.I would have been much less of a fool with 2-3 snakes.


Ivan Dochstader

 

[dwedeking]

Does anyone have a link to "acceptable profit margins"? I'd like to see what the industry standards are. Are we to now give a spreadsheet with line item costs along with a care sheet?

For a $1200 animal I think I would have asked some details about the phase, especially if it was new to me.

You weren't Kevin's responsibility. Did Neil ignore your questions? Did you pose the questions to Neil?

 

[dochstader]

john

john i finished reading your post you are right in one way they deserve an apology in the way i Flew off the handle with Kevins name and buisness it was completely uncalled for and Charlotte i never spoke to but i apoligize to you also for any slander towards your buisness.I am upset about being avoided.I don't exactly understand why you would do that.I was simply triing to inquire about something that you produced.In no way does that excuse the way i spoke in my original post.If you cannot forgive me it's understandable.

Ivan Dochstader

 

[Xtreme Reptiles]

I am another who is not here to defend neil, But If I found a leucistic ball python in my shipment with $5 Normals should I be expected to sell it for $205? I dont think so! you can bet I will sell it for a fair price according to its current Value... The Amount of profit is not of consiquence and totally up to me




Sincerely
Alfredo Veloso