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Selective spider breeding

The corkscrewing when looking up at the top of the cage would be, what I would consider, very minor. Some have it to the extreme where they are so bad, they cannot breed or function properly.
At one time, there was someone using the no wobble as a selling point. He was priced higher than market and IMO, it would have been worth out. He probably had to end up selling them at a lower price or be stuck with them.
Almost all of the big breeders will tell you that ALL spiders wobble and it makes no difference. I think that is just so they can sell them without repercussions because of the problem.
You can find ones without it but they are hard to come by.
In your case, since it is so minor, I would not worry too much. If it was me, I would only breed him to an unrelated animal that is not a spider. Since there is no super form, spider x spider is not neccesary IMO.
I think the more you outcross spiders to other animals, the more you lessen the chance of the problem appearing.
Good luck and the head pattern is really nice on yours.
 
Well, I am relieved a tad to hear your response, BUT I still may decide to not breed him. It depends on how much he does it and all. I do have at least another year til my female pastel has a chance to be up to breeding weight ( she is at 416 grams, so maybe next season, as in not this upcoming winter, but the one after) so we'll see how often he does it or doesn't do it.

I did just take him out and gently touched his nose and VERY GENTLY petted the top of his head- no freaking out head movements, just the normal reaction of pulling the head back with the look of 'hey, dont touch me there!'

My plans with him was to breed him with the pastel, and possibly to a mohave ( if/when I invest in one of them) And if I do decide to breed him, i'd start out with just one breeding with him, and see what the offspring do. If they show th e undesirable signs to the bad levels, then I know for sure I should not breed him again. But this all varies with how the spider's condition goes. I want to be known for breeding good lines of snakes, and I don't want to put out these desirable traits. So, we'll see how it goes, i'll keep monitoring his condition, and if it gets any worse, breeding is definatly out of th equestion.

It's kinda a shame, because I planned on working with spiders- I love their pattern and really want to work with the bee line morphs and such. But know that I learned out this new info, I may have a change in plans. I want what is best for the snakes and the potential customers I may get in the future. I am sure i'll eventually get a bumblebee at least, but I may focus on other morphs more.

Either way, I love my spider to death. Yeah, he may end up being the most expensive pet I bought, but he is such a cutiepie that he is worth it.

I have heard that all spiders wobble to a point- it may just be very minor head shakes to 'complete trainwrecks'. But, as I already stated, I don't really know too much about it- i just found out 2 days ago myself!

I am glad I found this thread- very informative to read on this subject.



:D

edf
 
Reviving the ancient thread

Well, this is a necro-thread, but I figured I would give it a poke and see if it twitches.

I just got a baby spider with a wobble. Yep. I noticed it while offering him his first mouse in my care, and was concerned...but thought I remembered reading something...so I went and did a search on it, and it pulled up this thread. I am now less concerned.

In my opinion, there is a very good chance that this trait is inextricably entwined with spider genetics. If it is, then I further suggest that, while line-breeding for a reduction in the severity of its expression is definitely desireable (IF possible), we probably shouldn't panic over it. Spiders are beautiful...if they wobble a little, they're still beautiful. They might just be the fainting goats of the ball python world. If this trait seldom substantially impairs the animals, then I see no reason why it has to be a major concern. I understand from what I have read here that a few animals are severely impaired...but what sort of numbers are involved there? How does it compare with other deformities that crop up in hatchlings on a semi-regular basis? If the incidence of severe impairment is low enough to be in line with eye deformities and such, then I don't believe it should deter people from breeding spiders.

I also don't think that reading about this should deter people from breeding a spider they currently own that has a minor wobble. I do think that holding back and breeding animals that do not have a noticeable wobble is most desireable, but if you're starting out with a wobble-head, it doesn't mean that its offspring will all have the trait with equal severity (or at all--though I tend to favor the idea they all have it, and it's simply not noticeable to us in some). Why would I take that stance? Because, as I understand it, the original spider had the wobble. This means every single spider out there is descended from a wobble-head. If any of them consistantly produce offspring without it, that's proof it can be bred out of them in a few generations at most. If those that do not have it will always produce offspring that do, then there is no point in starting with a non-wobbler. At most you would gain one generation of trying for a wobble-free line.
This is PROBABLY not going to be a quick fix. If it's possible to get rid of the wobble at all, then it will most likely be done by reducing the incidence and severity of the trait over time, and not by finding a (probably mythical) spider which doesn't have the gene for it at all, and thus produces no wobbler offspring.
In other words, cull the worst 'offenders', favor those that don't show the trait visibly, and be prepared to do it over and over again over many generations, because it's unlikely that it's going to just vanish with a couple generations of outcrossing.
The only thing gained by purchasing a non-wobbler is a single generation of this process. A search for a spider that never produces wobblers is probably a fruitless one, and honestly--is just letting someone else do the work of eliminating the trait rather than going ahead and working it out yourself.

In any case, that's how I plan to handle the issue with my animals. As has been pointed out, spiders are virtually never bred to one another, and the line is extremely well out-crossed, so it doesn't look very good for eliminating the wobble trait. It's worth a try...but not a panic, or a moratorium on breeding any spider with a bit of a wobble. If all wobblers produced all wobbling offspring, and non-wobblers produced all non-wobbling offspring, then it would make sense. Since that is far from the case...why be radical about it?

You can't make the argument that breeding a wobbler just puts more wobblers out on the market...because so does breeding a non-wobbler. Most spiders have the trait, at the very worst you're maintaining a status quo, not making a problem worse. If you don't breed them at all, there is certainly no chance to try to eliminate the problem or reduce it to consistantly liveable levels.

The argument that the wobble is a defect, and defective animals should not be bred, just begs the question of what you consider a genuine problem in a species undergoing domestication. Red-eyed albinos are defective. Without any doubt or question. They are light-sensitive, and as with albinos of other species, most likely susceptable to going blind when exposed to light excessively. They are prone to sunburn. These things are indicative of a defect that impairs the animal to some degree.
I have yet to see anyone of note calling for a moratorium on breeding amelanistics and snows of any species.

If the wobble is there to stay in spiders, then we can still love spiders for what they are, wobble and all. If it can't be eliminated, I see no reason to consign them to the status of 'defective' and stop working with them. Even if I did, most people wouldn't. The trait isn't 'cute', but it's not automatically dire and pitiful, either.

I would definitely like to see people who are working with a lot of spiders update information on this thread--to report if they find normal sibs with the trait, consistant lines of spiders without it, etc etc. That's the quickest way we have of all getting to the bottom of the issue. We could use less 'maybe', less 'I heard someone say that...'...and a lot more "this is what I personally saw".
 
... how come noone told me about this thread? This is totally an interesting topic that we spider loving ball python fans should be talking about!


This is something i plan to work on, just for myself to learn and see what i can do. I have a Male Spider that does not wobble *ill find pictures later for you guys* and i plan on a couple females, and such later on down the road that i can really keep track of genetics on, that also do not wobble.

This is also something i plan on taking years and years to do though. :) and... since im not really going anywhere that fast, i figure... why the heck not!?

I want to see if it is possible, like it was suggested earlier, to figure out what exactly is causing this problem and if they truly all do have it as some people seem to be saying. Its something i feel, for myself is a pretty long term goal that is going to take alot of time and insane selective breeding to figure out, but i am excited to think about working on it,like i said before if for noone else but myself.

Itll be a learning experience for sure. I also want to state that, If my spider produces anyone that wobbles, he will never be bred again.

To others also daring to take the time and care in taking something like this on eventually, i wish you the best of luck!


Edit*

Some Images

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Alicia, all I can say for certain is that NOT ALL Spiders wobble.

EDF01, I see various morphs position themselves in contorted positions when cruising in the rack... my 1st snake (a normal male) will raise his head to the top of his rack & lean the top of his head backwards looking for an opening. It's a very controlled movement & he's not the only snake I have that does this. Once I open his cage, he puts his head rightside up & comes out of the cage... if your Spider is doing that, I wouldn't call it abnormal.

This year my female Spider should breed (as long as she's 1500g or more... so far so good). I've an Axanthic male I want to pair her with which should give me Spiders & Normals that are het for Axanthic. I'll watch over the hatchlings for any defects & as I said before, I'll keep folks posted on how they do good or bad. If there's any wobble issues or not I'll share the info. Hopefully won't be wobbles as that a project ender for me if there are. The risk is worth the reward & if it doesn't pan out, I'll move on... that's a good reason to have other projects IMHO.

That old saying- "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" applies here.
 
NorthernRegius.com said:
Alicia, all I can say for certain is that NOT ALL Spiders wobble.

EDF01, I see various morphs position themselves in contorted positions when cruising in the rack... my 1st snake (a normal male) will raise his head to the top of his rack & lean the top of his head backwards looking for an opening. It's a very controlled movement & he's not the only snake I have that does this. Once I open his cage, he puts his head rightside up & comes out of the cage... if your Spider is doing that, I wouldn't call it abnormal.

This year my female Spider should breed (as long as she's 1500g or more... so far so good). I've an Axanthic male I want to pair her with which should give me Spiders & Normals that are het for Axanthic. I'll watch over the hatchlings for any defects & as I said before, I'll keep folks posted on how they do good or bad. If there's any wobble issues or not I'll share the info. Hopefully won't be wobbles as that a project ender for me if there are. The risk is worth the reward & if it doesn't pan out, I'll move on... that's a good reason to have other projects IMHO.

That old saying- "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" applies here.
Click to expand...

I would like, if someone is able, to see video of animals that do wobble. i have not seen it personally, but i HAVE seen a normal Spinner. Orlin, my spider, does not exhibit any strange movements that alarm me as to being something anything than normal. he my "telescope" the really cute, put their head up higher than their body and look over things. but most of my ball pythons do that every now and then.
When in feeding mode, i notice that his muscles get tense, like all ball pythons in feeding mode, and at that point in time, there is bounce. But, like i said i do not consider that anything more than the muscles tensed and ready to strike at incoming prey. I will get video of him moving around/feeding and get it uploaded when i have a bit more free time too. if anything for reference.

but not. wobbling or any loss of motor control. I can flip him upside down and he will right himself, i can turn him and hold him upsidedown and he will right his head. when he moves, it is usually pretty determined. Ie: Im out in the open! i better find a hiding spot!


I agree that NOT ALL spiders wobble, I just hope that Those of us that are attempting this, and plan on attempting this ( me ) will help for others to say that "not all spiders carry the gene" as well.

This is going to sounds like a noob question, and i could probably find it by just googling, and make myself sound like i know something as simple, but im not that way sooo Who produced the first spiders ever? is stock from both parents, seperate, and together available? i think this would help greatly in proving/disproving which adult, if both, the problem came from too.
some of the offspring from the first clutches would be a good idea to track down too!

I really am happy to see others doing this! i will willingly, once i get started, share any information i get, and pictures and what have you. The more information we can collect the better.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
Alicia,
Kevin at NERD had the first Spiders I believe. You'll note the many designer morphs he produced well in advance of the Spider becoming readily available. He was definately one of the main folks involved with this mutation. If I'm mistaken about Kevin being the first or anyone would like to add more to the history, that'd be great.
 
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What I have noticed so far with my little guy is not a lack of motor control--he has also done the 'head upside down' motion to explore the top of his bin--but a vibration of his head when he holds it up in an attitude of interest when examining prey. The more interested he is, it seems, the more his head vibrates. This tremor doesn't appear to keep him from otherwise normal behavior, and I have not noticed him acting abnormally when the top of his head is touched. While he is still a hatchling, the normal hatchling around the same age that we have in the household doesn't exhibit this tremor. I almost mistook this at first for him trying to match the motion of his head to the slight movement of the mouse dangling from the tongs.

The 'bounce' is a wobble--the trait becomes more pronounced when the animals are in hunting mode. Watch normal ball pythons closely when they hunt, and compare--you'll see that it is far more pronounced in the spiders, and almost palsied. I suspect some of the folks who think they have non-wobblers actually don't...they just have animals that display the trait to a minor degree, and they aren't sure what they are looking at. I think the idea of someone making a video to demonstrate it is a very good one, but unfortunately I don't have a video camera.
 
I suspect some of the folks who think they have non-wobblers actually don't...they just have animals that display the trait to a minor degree, and they aren't sure what they are looking at.
Click to expand...

I just watched heathers videos and can say that my animal does not display the traits you are speaking of, nor the ones shown in her videos. i am not saying it is NOT possible, but that, from seeing the video, and seeing the extreme and understanding it, would help me to figure out more minor instances of it, i believe personally with 100% honesty that My spider does not wobble.

Granted she said that was her worst, so if/when she has more time i believe she said she was going to get more videos of the ones that dont do it to the degree that one did. we will compare then.

Saying that all spiders wobble and its probably only because people just dont know what they are looking at, is a bit of a stretch, at least for this thread as there are several people here who keep plenty more ball pythons than myself, and have seen many many more ball pythons as well who say, theirs too, Do not wobble. i do not think these people would make that sort of thing up, or not know what they are talking about... based on their experience. BUT.... The possibility of all spiders carrying the gene, is not so much of a stretch, and is something i am always keeping in mind.But i believe that it is very possible for a Spider to never display the trait.
 
WingedWolf said:
The 'bounce' is a wobble--the trait becomes more pronounced when the animals are in hunting mode.
Click to expand...


And not a bounce of the head IE tipping it down as they are moving, as i saw in the videos as well.. bounce of tense muscles as the snake may move forward, or from somone jarring the tub/feeding tank/enclosure at feeding time. All snakes get this when they are tense and in the s curve to strike. if you open a tub and they make the s curve with their neck, they will bounce from the movement of the tub.
 
Where did you watch her video? I do not see a link, lol...

I don't think that everyone who says their spider doesn't wobble is just missing it, either--I said that SOME of them probably are. Particularly when you get folks who have a really huge collection with a lot of spiders in it, and say that none of them wobble.
 
WingedWolf said:
Where did you watch her video? I do not see a link, lol...

I don't think that everyone who says their spider doesn't wobble is just missing it, either--I said that SOME of them probably are. Particularly when you get folks who have a really huge collection with a lot of spiders in it, and say that none of them wobble.
Click to expand...


she posted the links in chat. She will post them later i am sure
 
I got video ( crappy quality, and lighting) of my spider being moved around. He did not appreciate it one bit. but, so that i can show what i am saying about my guy not wobbling.

I will get feeding stuff asap!
 
I do not want to publically post my video at this point, but if you would like to see it, please PM me.
 
WingedWolf said:
Where did you watch her video? I do not see a link, lol...

I don't think that everyone who says their spider doesn't wobble is just missing it, either--I said that SOME of them probably are. Particularly when you get folks who have a really huge collection with a lot of spiders in it, and say that none of them wobble.
Click to expand...

I own over 30 python regius, in addition to SD & Madu Retics. My collections are pampered pets first- they all have names & are handled frequently.

I saw the video Correy Woods posted (in another forum) of the male Spider someone sent him- lots of cork-screwing & wobble. My female Spider has not ever shown any of those behaviors even on a minor scale. She doesn't freak out when prey touches her nose, she doesn't "bounce" when hunting.

The breeder I got her from bred her from a wobble free male, a very nice snake. So that's 2 generations... does it mean my girl is in the clear? Only time will tell. But I do stand by what I said- not all Spiders wobble. Hopefully we can control it with selective breeding, we'll only find out for sure by trying & seeing what happens.
 
If someone will remind me in about a week or two, I'll try to get video of my wobble girl.. umm wobbling.
She wobbles very badly, and was sold to me as a 100% healthy snake.
 
I still believe that all Spiders show some sort of "wobble". I use the term because it has been most used in this thread. It can be something as drastic as flipping over on its back, something less drastic as a little shake in the head or as subtle as a slight head tilt when sitting still. Its really up to the breeder to decide which ones should be bred and which shouldn't. Unfortunately, as shown by a multitude of BOI threads, there are quite a few unscrupulous people out there that will not only breed the worst of the spinners, but sell them to people as perfectly fine.
 
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