To Jump or Not To Jump

[Seamus Haley]

You're still assuming I'm trying to deceive people about the genotype of this animal. I would absolutely tell them this is by no means a pastel jungle (genotypically proven). It will be described as a nonproven phenotypic pastel.

Said that a page or two back Brian...

That you would absolutely tell them it is by no means a pastel jungle...

And would label it a nonproven phenotypic pastel...

Would you also feed them those lines about "It just hasn't been proven out yet, all the big ticket morphs started out as imports, now look at the prices." while conveniently leaving out the odds involved with discovering and proving out a new genetic morph?

Deception doesn't always have to be an outright lie...

A "convenient" omission of the complete truth qualifies too. You've shown that you seem hell bent on using a term that has the possibility of confusing people, true you might not deliberatly lie, but you allow them to form a misimpression...

And if they ask, you've already shown that you're more than ready to jump in with a quick "You can't prove it's not." and "There's a chance that it might be." without specifying the odds or explaining why you're ripping someone off for about $125 worth of undeserved profit (give or take $50, what are imported neonate balls selling for this year? Assume for a moment that he's got them feeding and healthy, he hasn't really commented on that yet so I figure he should get the benefit of the doubt... for now at least).

Partial representation of the truth is still deceptive... if you were really as honest about all this as you claim it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place since you would have selected another term that wouldn't hold even the hint of the merest speculation of the possibility of confusion... and you sure as hell wouldn't try to return with arguments about how all morphs were imported at one point or another while not specifying the odds against your animal representing a new genotypical mutation.

As I said before, it's a matter of ethics... Brian is showing his.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Steve,

I agree with you 100%, you can't tell they are pastels from that picture. What I meant was that the term Pastel is being used to refer to Pastel Jungles, and I know that Camlon Reptiles do carry them in their stock. It was just an examples as of how the term Pastel is being used indistinctly fro Pastel Jungle. Thanks for the making the point though.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Pastel vs. Pastel Jungle

Here are some more examples of the indistinct use of the term. All those that posted these ads are known to carry Pastel Jungle breeding stock:

Ball Pythons Here or Incubating.
Posted by XXX (Contact Me!) on May 08, 2003 at 14:32:41

Let me know if you have an interest in any of these and we can work out a deal. I will consider trades as well:

Hatching:

Clutch 1: 50% Possible Het. Clown

Clutch 2: 50% Possible Het. Genetic Stripe

Incubating:

Clutch 3: 50% Possible Het. Camel Albino

Clutch 4: 50% Possible Het. Clown

Clutch 5: Het. VPI Snow X VPI Axanthic

Clutch 6: Sharp Albino X VPI Axanthic

Clutch 7: Odd Color Yellow Ghost X Yellow Ghost

Gravid (lay in 30 days or less):

Clutch 8: VPI “True Ghost” (Double Het. X Double Het.)

Clutch 9: Pastel (Possible Het. Piebald) X Het. Piebald

Clutch 10: Het. VPI Snow X VPI Axanthic

Clutch 11: VPI Axanthic X HUGE Het. VPI Axanthic

Clutch 11: Het. Clown X VPI Axanthic

Yet another one:

Ball Python - Male PIC Posted by XXX (Contact Me!) on May 06, 2003 at 05:10:37

Ball Python - Male

Description: Great looking 3 1/2 ft male ball python. It has a nice pattern with high yellow contrast. We have seen many sold at shows as pastels for $600 and up.
Price: $350.00

Note that in this last ad they are being very careful (of labeling their animal simply "Pastel"). They are not saying it is, only that they have seen people selling them as such in shows, thus they recognizing Pastel as a synonim for Pastel Jungle.

Regards.

 

[NEWReptiles]

In the pic I see 3 NORMAL balls, with nice colors. I just had a fauna member (whom I look up to) send me the link to this thread as I had no idea it was even here.

I have not been posting here as much as I find myself and my posts getting out of hand on ball morph issues. I am sick and tired of people posting balls up for sale with labels such as pastel, ghost, and many others when it is clear to see by the looks of the animal, AND the price, that it is in fact a normal ball python.

I am one of the many people that refer to Pastel jungles as PASTELS. I do think Joe has a great point, but I just sold my breeder male PASTEL. This was a geneticly proven Jungle pastel.

I will be back later today to read this entire post for the third time, but I will however say this. For anybody to call/sell an animal that is normal as a pastel, is just wrong, and I hope that people that scam like this get weeded out of herps as soon as possible.

Again, I will reread this thread again and be back to post after I go to the grocery store and buy some nachos. I just found some chips in a black and white bag that look the same as doritos, I noticed that they were priced at 1/3 of doritos, but they look similiar so they must be worth more. I was gonna buy a few extra bags and sell them as DORITOS.

 

[bpc]

UMMM........ Have I ever even said the animal was for sale? Have you seen an ad for this snake for sale anywhere at any price? Seamus, to answer your questions. I have had the snake since last week. I thought he looked a little wierd sitting in the box with all the others, so I picked it out on the off chance it would turn out unique after it shed. Once it did, I was nicely surprised. The animal has not fed yet, but I've only tried twice. Since it has not fed it is no where near ready to be for sale.

Have I ever said I would be selling this animal for $1500? I think the closest I got to putting a price on it was saying, I thought the general public would be happy to pay $200 bucks for it. You guys keep bashing me for thinking this snake is worth more than a normal ball, yet you're willing to pay more for the snakes you buy just so you can produce snakes that look different from normal balls. This snake stands out head and shoulders above the other 25 ball pythons I have in my basement right now. I think I made a mistake of putting that nice light-colored one in the pic with it. Had I just ploped it out there with two normals, it would have stood out much more.

And Seamus, who are you to determine what "undeserved profit" is or isn't. The snake is sitting in my basement, while I wait on it to get hungry enough to start feeding. It hasn't been sold to some poor, unsuspecting nun, who was making her first venture into the reptile industry. And when/if I do decide to sell it, whatever profit I make on it is between me and my customer. I believe we still live in America where I can ask $150,000 for that snake if I want and if someone agrees to give that for it, I'm allowed to take it. You're right Tom did challenge my snake, but never with any specifics. I want him, you, or someone to explain the phenotypic differences between my snake and his to me. Based on the pics, I don't see much difference, other than his does seem to have more of the "blushing" down the back than mine.

Realvenom, I never said my snake was a "Dorito" (brand name like Pastel Jungle), I only said it was a nacho chip. Made of corn and trianglular.

 

[Ken Harbart]

All I can say is...wow.

 

[The BoidSmith]

OK, OK, what is this?

What's the ball python in the picture? Do I hear $200 for it? If so consider it sold (and I'm profiting $165!!!)!

 

[dwedeking]

So what is the accepted profit margin per animal? Do you adjust for cost of living allowance, or is the snake breeder's profit margin in Alabama enough for the breeder in CA or NY as well? Does the snake's (or lizards) pedigree need to be backed up with with a Profit and Loss statement as well?

I just think jumping on someone's pricing as a basis of whether they are ethical or not is not rooted in reality. Pricing is decided by market conditions (supply, demand and what the consumer is willing to pay), in our society anyway.

 

[Wilomn]

I haven't read Brian say he was selling this snake. I have read that if he did he would tell the buyer what it looked like but that it wasn't a genitically proven trait in this animal. Sounds like he intends to be completely upfront and honest IF he decides to sell it at all.

Now if this thread is to question Brians ethics I think we went way way off track here. If it's about him selling a snake that looks a lot like a genitically proven and valuable morph of the ball python, well, then we're a little closer to the mark. It's been difficult to tell just which point has been the main one here.

Now, as far as what Brian charges and how much profit he makes, it is NO ONES business but his. I think some of you have stepped pretty far over the line on this one. Yes, this is America, land of the free and home of the profit. Whether he gives it away for nothing or trades it for his next house is entirely up to him and whoever gets it, no one else. So long as all parties in the deal are happy then there is no reason for anyone to have any concerns over this at all.Brian, as far as I am concerned, can sell this snake as whatever he wants to call it so long as he's honest about the genitics involved-ie unproven as being genitic at all-and charge what ever he thinks he can get for it. If you're in reptiles as a business you're in it to make money. As long as the snake is honestly represented it's his business and no one elses what he sells it for.

Wes Pollock

 

[Seamus Haley]

Profit becomes unreasonable...

When it is gained under false pretenses.

The fact that he refuses to acknowledge the misrepresentation inherent in using a popular term associated with something his animal is not...

Makes it likely, not a guarantee, but LIKELY the a novice buyer would form a misimpression about the value of the animal and thus would be paying for something they would not otherwise pay that amount for...

Had it been labeled properly.

It's not acceptable to sell an animal as captive bred when it is only haptive hatched and apply additional money to the stated price using the misrepresntation as a justification for the action... It's similarly unacceptable to give unsuspecting and naive buyers a misimpression about the value of the animal while jacking the price up well above what would be charged were the represntation honest. By using the term Pastel, the animal is being misrepresented, end of story.

No matter what information is given to a potential consumer IF they ask, using the term "Pastel" for an animal which is NOT PASTEL is misrepresentation and thus... the price is falsely inflated. And... what if they don't ask? And... will they get the same "It's not genetically proven, but that doesn't mean it's not genetic" that have been seen on this thread, a highly misleading used cars salesman type pitch for this imported ball python.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Here's a hypothetical for those who don't think Brian is misrepresenting this animal.

It's technically a possibility that any animal might have spontaneously mutated and become heterozygous for a rare and desireable trait.

Possible hets for higher end morphs sell for more than normals.

Is it then acceptable to label an animal a "Possible Het for (Trait)" and charge ten times what would ordinarly be charged?

It's technically a possibility that this animal could qualify as a Pastel... But it's damn unlikely.

"Possible het" in the above example... Brian's "Pastel"

Same thing.

 

[Wilomn]

Seamus, it's so nice to see that you agree with me. Case is now closed, Brian can do as he sees fit, Seamus has admitted that though unlikely, it does fall within the realm of possibility that this snake is pastel and will pass on the trait it's offspring.

Anything is possible, especially with ball pythons and the endless mutability they seem so prone too. Who is to say that this snake IS NOT expressing a genitically inheritable trait? Until it's proven one way or the other some of us up on those high horses better make sure the cinch straps are tight.

Wes Pollock

 

[dwedeking]

charge ten times what would ordinarly be charged

Absolutely, he can charge whatever he wants no matter the label or genetics.

"Possible Het for (Trait)"

Isn't working with possible hets from anyone a gamble? A "from the wild" possible het is a larger risk than a "big name breeder" possible het. But both are still a risk. I'll never go near a slot machine but I'll play black jack no problem based on my levels of accepted risk. Is it the casino's responsibility to post a chart of which games have the best odds? In reality "playing the odds" is not a guaranteed situation no matter who you buy from.

but LIKELY the a novice buyer would form a misimpression

I believe one of Brian's premises was that the general public wouldn't be knowledgeable enough to know that a "pastel" was anymore than light colored, which in his impression the snake is.

 

[The BoidSmith]

By the way let me say first that I highly value the way this discussion has been discussed.

Now, as far as what Brian charges and how much profit he makes, it is NO ONES business but his. I think some of you have stepped pretty far over the line on this one. Yes, this is America, land of the free and home of the profit. Whether he gives it away for nothing or trades it for his next house is entirely up to him and whoever gets it, no one else.

For all I care there are people posting for sale baby albino boas of the Kahl strain for $1500. The ongoing market price is $800-1000 (as established by the larger breeders. Do I care? No. Their animal is not misrepresented, maybe their costs of production are higher, maybe they want to make more money. Good for them.

There are people posting adult normal male ball pythons (posted as such) for $200. Will they sell them? Probably not if they don't lower their price. Again it's their right and they are representing them as such. Same goes for females $300 normal adults. If you find the buyer good for you.

Again, the only problem is when you use a name that leads to confusion in order to boost-up a sale. If you post normal ball pythons as hetero for Caramel (colorwise, a shade of brown) you are deceiving as people immediately relate to Caramel albinos. If you post an animal as Pastel people will understand Pastel Jungle. If you post Pieds people will understand piebalds.

The key is in Wes' words:

As long as the snake is honestly represented it's his business and no one elses what he sells it for.

I think it's time to side with Ken. Too much time spent on this discussion. It was good though!

Regards.

 

[The BoidSmith]

One closing joke for the day (related to genetics though). Remember the movie Dumb and Dumber? When Jim Carrey asks the girl "What are the chances of you and I going out together"? She is quick to answer "One in a million". Jim replies and says: "So you are actually saying there is a chance"!

 

[Python Dreams]

Wes and Brian,
Their is no possiblility whatsover that any of those snakes are pastels. The one on the left side is the one I believe you are referring too. It has the blushing going down the back that is similar to what you find in pastels, but that is it and the blushing does not seem to be near as intense. It looks brown, not yellow or even light. The eyes appear to be dark not light or gray. The belly is not visible, but is it patternless? There does not appear to be a two tone of gold (or brown in your case) from the top to the bottom. I dont know what else you want to hear about that snake in particular. Without better pictures or without seeing it in person, that snake is not a Pastel or Pastel Jungle Ball Python and to name it such is deceptive and scammish. Even if those genes passed on, they are not near a pastel and do not bring interest from that pattern or any genetics involved with that. I would not take that snake from you for free if it is a male. Most breeders would probably not take the time to try and prove out minor differences in pattern such as your snakes unless they have quite a few distinct and very noticable differences. Like the Pastels.
It is noones business what anyone decides to charge for any possesion wether it be $1.00 or $100,000. But what some fail to realize is that Seames is 100% correct. When you attach a name to an animal that is accepted in the industry as a desired trait, if this animal does not have this trait you are somewhat tricking people into buying it. What happens if they dont ask? Are you going to tell them Brian? Will you give them the speech about how this probably is a Pastel, but does not come with paperwork since the genetics are not proven. Even hinting to that is downright fraudulent and would make you to be pretty much a lowlife in my book. Its strange how your looking for answers that it is o.k. to use the term Pastel from people that do not know Ball's, and trying to find leverage that way instead of just asking actual people in the Ball Python industry. One visit to any of the "Big Breeders" would clear it up right away. Instead you want to act like their is some big Pastel conspiracy going on and that their are normals out their that look exactly like Pastels but since it is not from the original lineage that it does not count. That is all ridiculous and you really should change your way of thinking. If your going to be involved in selling Ball Pythons and you want to be taken seriously why would you disregard all the work and effort out that has been done, just so hopefully you can feel like you happened upon a morph without having to do any research or spend any money. Its just all of us ingnorant people trying to hold down the market and deny that you own a Pastel. But, whatever.... Do what you rationalise is the right thing to do instead of JUST ASKING EXPERTS IN THE FEILD. Im sure that will bring you alot closer to owning a pastel (at least in your mind, and the mind of the soon to be possibly scammed customer).
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[Python Dreams]

Daniel,
I dont think that their is a such thing as a "possible hets", or even hets from the wild. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if it is from the wild we would have no idea who the parents were, completlely distinguishing any possibiblity of guessing genetics. It is either visibly displaying the trait or it is a wild caught normal. I dont think I have ever seen 100% Heterozygous for Albino Wild Caught Ball Python posted for sale.
And as far as Camlon Reptiles (mentioned earlier), I have met and have talked to both Diana and Debra quite a few times. I know for fact they produced Pastels last year. I have yet to hatch out a Ball (have 7 eggs in incubator in which 1/2 should be Pastel Jungle), but I am assuming they could tell that this was a Pastel ready to exit the egg (I did not see pic). Hopefully I will get to see the difference soon ;-). I trust them enough to have purchased a 100% for albino female. I just remembered I wanted to mention that when they were first brought up.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[meretseger]

I've got 20 possible het for leucisitc sand boas for sale for only $1000 each, if anyone's interested. There's a 1/100,000 chance that they are carrying a leucisitic mutation, so you can't say it's not true .


Erin B.

(I got the figure out of a book)

 

[bpc]

I believe one of Brian's premises was that the general public wouldn't be knowledgeable enough to know that a "pastel" was anymore than light colored, which in his impression the snake is

THANK YOU, THANK YOU , THANK YOU!!!!!!

At least one person gets it.

Seamus, I'm not now, nor will I every be selling this snake as a het, poss. het, maybe het, 1 in a million chance of being het, go take a flying leap off a tall building het. So please quit trying to argue the poss het. thing, it doesn't fit the situation. This snake is phenotypically (looks) abnormal, that is all I'm trying to say. If I sell this snake, it will be sold based on how it looks, period. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

IMHO this snake looks "pastel." Now, based on the fact that I now fear for my life because of "The Brotherhood of the Ball", I may, repeat may, just go ahead and use Alvaro's suggestion of "Pastelish." And frankly Seamus, if someone is knowledgeable enough about ball pythons to be able to quote your definition of pastel, verbatum, don't you think they should know what one looks like, know what questions to ask, and know what the current market value is? My point is, no one that is looking for a Pastel Jungle, and has done all this research you and Tom keep screaming about, is going to be confused by my little $200 pastel. I know this snake isn't worth $1500 and I'm a freaking idiot when it comes to ball pythons (according to you and Tom), so if I can manage it, I think the general public will do just fine.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Tom,

Adult Piebalds, albinos, and pastel jungles (there was one up for sale on kingsnake until last week) have been captured in the past. Chances are they were produced by a random mating of two recessive genes in the wild. Mathematically there is a possibility that it might happen, but it would probably be like winning the powerball twice in a row.

Regards.