To Jump or Not To Jump

[bpc]

Tom, genetically speaking, every animal born is a "possible het" for every recessive condition known, and unknown, to man. That doesn't make it a marketable condition though. Het or not het animals don't show recessive traits only dominate ones. The recessive only shows up if the dominate is not part of the animal's genome.

In fact, genetically speaking, calling the Pastel Jungle trait a "co-dominate trait" may be incorrect also. If this Super Pastel you speak of is obtained the same way a Super Tiger Retic is then the trait would be one exhibiting incomplete dominance not codominance. To give you an example if your mother carries only genes for A type blood and your Father only genes for B type blood you will have the AB blood type. Codominance means both traits are expressed FULLY. In incomplete dominance, the traits are muted and only fully expressed when the offspring has the trait on both chromosomes.

The alleles for the Super Tiger could be represented as TT (or tt but that is confusing because the genes are not truly recessive), for a tiger TN, and for a normal retic would be NN. If the traits are truly recessive (not having effects in the heterozygous condition) like albinism we'd use lower case letters. Nn for a het albino, nn for albino.

 

[sschind]

to be or not to be. What was the question

I think part of the problem here lies in the confusion of just what qualifies an animal to be labeled as a particular "morph" Does an animal need to have the geneotype to be classified as a morph or will the phenotype be enough. Example, I just bought a bunch of leopard geckos from Garrick Demayer. Of the 15, two have no black on them, just very light yellow, and a light lavender look. I know that Garrick is smart enough not to include anything that would be considered a more rare "morph" in a group of normals (if he did then thank you and I am the fool) To me I would consider them hypos, perhaps even amelanistic, but I would never label them as such. In fact I just saw a baby "hypo" listed that had more black on it than almost every one I got from him. I do not the the parents of these animals, and I don't know the genetics. Still, I know what they look like. I also know that baby Leos can change their color dramatically as they get older and that babies that look odd have a very good chance of ending up looking like average normal adults. Still, very few of these babies look anything like the dozens of bright black and yellow babies that I have hatched out in the past. They will be sold as normals however, and if someone wants to call them "hypos" when they get them home, thats not my fault, I won't even bring that term up.

I don't want to switch this from a ball discussion to a gecko discussion, I am just adding input from a situation I know personally. I will give you a hypothetical situation that does involve balls though. Recently it is rumored that someone paid a ton of money for a leucistic female ball python. We have all seen the pictures and we all agree that it is a leucistic (type 1 or 2 is another matter) What if this snake never produces leucistic offspring or any of its offspring ever produce leucistics. Is this animal then NOT to be considered leucistic since its genetics have never been proven. I seem to recall a while back someone had a pure white burmese python with coal black eyes ( a friend of mine had pictures of it and says he had seen it. Wouldn't this qualify as a leucistic. I had also heard that the owner could never get it to reproduce. Since the genetic line was never proven through offspring, is this no longer a leucistic snake.

When it comes to genetics I am no Mendel, and I admit that comparing a leucistic to a pastel jungel may be like comparing apples to oranges (really white apples to a paler softer shade of orange oranges perhaps but a comparison none the less)

Still they question is valid. What does it take for an animal to be labeled as "??" does it simply have to look liks a "??" or does it have to have the proven genetics of a "??" and if it does look like a "??" wouldn't that indicate that it has the genetics of a "??"

Of course all of this is thrown out the window when we can't even agree on what a "??" really is. Its kind of like the Cincinnati Bengals, they have the superficial outward appearance of a proffesional football team but ...

Steve Schindler

 

[Python Dreams]

My point about their being no hets or poss. hets from the wild was not that they dont exist, but that noone knows who the parents are and to claim any genetics is a lie. I think that obviously certain people have a different tolerance level for what they consider the truth.
I also really do not have a complete understanding of the punnet square or science in general to argue anything about the co-dominance or dominance of a trait. I do know that somepeople look at a Pastel as the heterozygous form of a Super Pastel. The difference between the recessive trait is that the co-dominate is visible in het form. Could be completely wrong, but that is how I have come to understand it.
Brian,
I think your problem lies within the fact that you do know that their are Pastels available. At first you came on saying that yours was better looking than mine, and since it didnt come with paperwork that is why it is not a pastel. Any stretch of a possible argument you can come up with about how the general public doesnt know so it shouldnt matter. The general public doesnt know about Pastels being a used trait... Your snake does not resemble any dictionary definiton to pastel (that I can see), nor does it appear in anyway to be a Pastel Jungle. Why would you be bent on using the term Pastel? What if someone is as ignorant as you to what the correct markings of a Pastel. Maybe they are the type of person who has heard of Pastel, but really knows nothing at all about them, kinda like you. They then see Pastel related to your snake and they think they got a deal. I guess you can only teach a dog so many tricks, but if you have to stick to the term Pastel, so be it. Glom on to any term you can find and use it... God forbid that could be a good looking normal, instead it is pastelish, Pastel like, Pastel without paperwork, unproven pastel. Say whatever you need to get just that right amount of deception without actually lying. That sounds like the right thing to do huh Brian? Next time I need advice on my Nissan, Im going to call the Hummer dealer because I think Nissan messed up naming my SUV an Xterra because it is very Hummerish... ;-)
Thanks, Tom Baker
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[Python Dreams]

Steve,
We can agree what a Pastel is. Brian only has to ask the experienced "Big Breeders" in the ball industry. I think if I asked here what the difference between an E-Orracle, an Intimidator, or an Angel is (paintball guns), most would not know the difference. So me being partially intelligent would probably go over to a paintball forum. The only reason that we cannot agree what a Pastel is because we dont have many that are working with them here. Their is a defintite look to a Pastel that most Ball enthusiasts can pick out. Pure and Simple!!!!!! Just because the non-Ball oriented people here do not know does not mean their is not a standard.
I also believe that if an animal is pure white and has black eyes it is Luecistic. Just as if an animal is lacking yellow pigment it is Axanthic. Their possibly can be other factors that maybe lead to how they appear this way other than genetics. Maybe similar to how some animals will be striped due to incubation temps,not genetics. I think that people will call it unproven until that lineage produces offspring to guarantee that its genetic. I could be way off base here, but that is how I've come to understand it.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[bpc]

It is what it is.

Steve, obviously, I like to call a duck a duck. I call a snake hypo if it is hypo as compared to the average normal phenotype of it's species. That's why I think this snake qualifies as pastel. The term pastel has been used to describe light colored ball pythons, with a blushing type head (and body in most cases), light colored irises, and bright gold pattern. Could I call it something else? Sure but then people would be asking why are you making up stupid names. Pastel means a soft hew, and maybe a little more, I think my snake has that. The term Pastel Jungle implies a specific set of characteristics, genes, and verifiable lineage. But you will not find the term "Pastel Jungel" in any Genetics text book, like you could the terms albino, amelanistic, axanthic, etc.

I think what needs to happen is, if this term/name is so important to the owners of the blood line, they need to apply for a trademark. Then "Pastel Jungle" (capitalized) could only be legally used to describe snakes of that lineage. But, I doubt they can claim the adjective pastel. Once they do that, then everyone can dance around the name, but never use it. Then we could have a true industry standard. If it says Pastel Jungle, you'd better be able to back up the claim.

If it says pastelish, pastel, pastel wannabe, whatever, then people who might be looking for a Pastel Jungle would know it's just a pretty ball python that may or may not have the ability to pass on it's traits. If not, whether it be me or 1500 other vendors around the world people will continue to use the adjective pastel to describe ball pythons that look like this, and eventually the term will mean nothing special at all, nuch the same way okeetee now means big, pretty corn snake.

Kind of like Dr. Pepper, there's Dr. Chek, Dr. Thunder, and I'm sure others around different parts of the nation. Are they similar to Dr. Pepper, well that's depends on you you ask. Some people are very happy to spend less for an off brand and are then satisfied with the taste. Some people do not buy off-brands period. But I seriouly doubt people that pick up a bottle of Dr. Thunder at thier neighborhood Walmart can turn around and sue Walmart when they find out it's not Dr. Pepper.

 

[Python Dreams]

Ignorance must truly be bliss. I hate to say it, but the arguments you have are pretty pathetic. Their is a standard in the industry and if you want to act like a little spoiled kid who needs to use the term pastel, and disrespect and try and make yourself to be so important as to change what is accepted in the Ball Python industry, that is your call. What because you have a normal Ball Python? What would you call the snake if it was actually a Pastel (sorry Pastel Jungle for those who dont understand that concept)? Why would you even try and start compairing the inadequacies of the labeling of the Corn market and then you want to be the leader of the same thing with Ball Pythons? Just think about how much you could of learned about what is going on in the Ball market and what is considered the standard with genetics. Instead you whine about everything under the sun so you can hopefully confuse someone into thinking theirs is a Pastel. Light irises, what a lighter shade of brown? You'll continually make references to how they cannot copywright an adjective instead of just sucking it up and realizing the truth. I really am awestruck at what was originally ignorance that then turned into stupidity. Maybe I take this more personally then some because I do have actual Pastels, and even eggs in the incubator. But when you have an idea of what your talking about and you see someone who is given the information, and through the internet has access to any Ball Python expert, but completely avoids all of it for his own personal attempt at importance or deception, or maybe just plain old jealousy. Who knows? Actual truth and the ability to read and understand are not going to take place with Brian , so stick with deception and arguments enought to just dodge what is accepted, or what is really going on in an industry that exist and has standards even if you refuse to see it.....
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[bpc]

Let's talk SUV's

Tom, since you like talking about SUV's so much, let's go there.

The name Nissan Exterra is a trademarked brand name. No one make a car and call it that, except Nissan. If fact, even if Hummer wanted to, they couldn't call one of their models the Hummer Exterra. Let's say your Exterra is red. So, you now own a Red Nissan Exterra. Hummer can make red Hummers, and they can call them red.

The term pastel when used to describe reptiles brings to mind a light colored animal (can everyone agree to that). You can't say there is an industry standard unless, everytime someone says "pastel" to a herper (any herper, not just the 56 people who hang out in the BP forum, because that forum is not the industry), everyone of them immediately spits out your 15 page definition of the Jungle Pastel line.

I have pastel boas, and they are definitely not Pastel Jungle ball pythons. Much the same way a red Hummer is not a red Nissan Exterra. The word pastel in and of itself cannot be trademarked and therefor cannot be claimed by the Botherhood of the Ball. Trademark "Pastel Jungle" and then go after people who infringe on your trademark. This is America we have laws that will help you do so.

Suppose tonight you and your family are walking out to your RED Nissan Exterra and one of your kids who is still small enough to fit in a car seat (if you have any) calls "shotgun." There is a standard which says he who calls "shotgun" gets to ride in the front seat. But there are also laws which say children in car seats must ride in the backseat. You can't call "shotgun" on an adjective. Therefor, you guys are going to have to do a better job in the future of picking names for your aberrant ball pythons. Don't use adjectives like pastel, use nouns like Mojave or Moca and then trademark those names.

 

[dwedeking]

Tom,

Take a deep breath. I don't think that Brian is attacking you personally and said if he did sell it then he would label it "light colored" or "pastelish" just to appease the purists in the group.

The law states you cannot trademark or reserve a generic term. Since pastel is a generic term it is open to use by anyone to describe their snake, lizard or car. Pastel Jungle is a specific name, and if there is an industry standard is should be as specific as possible so as to not allow for confusion either through dishonest means or lack of knowledge.

Stand at a department store checkout stand for a period of time. You'd be amazed at the lack of knowledge for the most part on the consumer. Then grab a sample of these consumers that lack knowledge and sit down explaining all the details about the items in their purchase. The ones that don't fall asleep from boredom would still purchase the same product at the same price.

Why would you even try and start compairing the inadequacies of the labeling of the Corn market and then you want to be the leader of the same thing with Ball Pythons?

He's stating that the labeling is already inadequate. As one of the ads posts by Alavaro shows, it's being exploited at shows across the US. The weakness is in the poor labeling utilized by the "industry standard".

 

[Python Dreams]

Read my previous post... It says it all. Their is nothing more I can add to this and their is nothing that you want to hear other than that you have a pastel and can call it that. I personally dont deal with Boas or Corns, but I would never go and try and start making changes and claims in their industry. If I wanted to be taken seriously I would learn and follow what is accepted in that particular industry and go from their. But maybe the difference is that I would not mislead, lie, or be deceptive in anyway. If you told me you had a Pastel Boa I would not relate that to ball Python. The minute you had a Pastel Ball I would expect to see a certain animal. You truly are a waist of time.. Have fun with your pastel, maybe you can try and find some fake Clowns, because we all know what clowns look like, but how can they name a ball Python that? Right Brian? If it has red curly hair and a honker on its nose, and you painted spots on it it would be a "Clown" Ball Python. We all know that is what clowns do as people so why couldnt a clown ball be the same way? Wow what fun low level arguments without logic or reasoning can be....
Tom Baker

 

[Ken Harbart]

In the name of all that's holy...

 

[Seamus Haley]

I'll just be dodging frantically back and forth to escape the knife wielding Mother behind the shower curtain while I post...

There's a difference between terms related directly to pigment and terms related to an exact morph. In some species these may appear to be the same thing for some morphs but not all.

Albino, Hypomelanistic, Hyperxanthic, Axanthic, Leusistic... these terms are actually specific to the phenotype in their dictionary definitions and only related to genotypes when a specific species/strain is mentioned, as there can be different causes for the deviation in appearance.

Terms like: "Pastel" "Screamer" "High Yellow" "Blazin" "Clown" "Jungle" "Super-Anything" "Chocolate" "Moustached" "Spider" "Ladderback" "Circleback" "Reduced pattern" "Fading" "Blood Red" "Sunset Red" "Crisp" "piebald" and on and on and on in a never ending list... They are used, specific to a reptile species, to describe not only the phenotype but the genotype of the animal. Using a term that denotes a genotype when the genotype is not present is fraudulent.

Selling animals under a fradulent label when that label is accompanied by a price increase is ethically and morally incorrect. It's scamming potential buyers into believeing they are buying something they are not and it is misrepresenting the animal.

Like it or not, "Pastel" even by itself reffrences a specific morph, it indicates a specific genotype that the animal in question does not have. Since the animal does not have it but Brian will be using the label, Brian will be misrepresenting this animal.

I can't write an ad selling my "Piebald Ball Python" and then just tell people IF they ask, that "It's not really what the industry reccognizes as piebald, it's just this animal I have named piebald, but there's really no such thing as an industry standard anyway because there's always a possibility that it's parents, who are still in africa and probably never so much as been seen by a human being might have been real piebalds anyway and besides the dictionary just says piebald is different colors and it's brown and black, now give me forty times what I paid for it because it has a pretty name." It would still be fraud, it would still be misleading, it would still be ripping people off.

Jesse Underhill sent some normal snakes out as something they clearly were not, after selling them as something they clearly were not...

Brian proposes to send out some normal snakes as something they clearly are not after selling them as something they clearly are not...

Brian = Jesse?

An extreme statement to make and I really don't think Brian is scum... I just think he's proposing to deccieve his customers in order to increase his profits.

I have no problem with selling an animal for any amount the seller thinks it's worth... Provided it's properly represented (P.E. selling point).

If it's misrepresented, it gives me the impression that the seller KNEW it wasn't worth the higher than "normal price" and had to add some quick B.S. in order to try and justify the cost to potentially ignorant buyers.

Basically, if the appearance is worth $200, then why does the misleading label of Pastel have to be applied?

 

[NEWReptiles]

After reading this for the 5th time

Seamus,

I feel that there are way to many untrustworthy people in the herp industry seeling animals labeled as morphs that are not any kind of morph at all. For a few weeks I would post the con-artists ads in the ball forum and usualy explain why I thought the ad was B.S. I soon after quit posting the ads due to all the harrassment I got via pm and email. I didnt back down, but it was brought to my attention I may have been wrong for posting names in the threads I started.

Many people have different favorites when it comes to reptiles, mine happens to be the python regius. This is on of the reasons I get irrated when I see people calling their balls something they are not.

After I signed up for fauna and have been befriended by many members, I also started to see alot of bad in some people. After I was scammed a few times, I started a stupid little list. On this list I have the names of people that LIE, cheat, steal, and rip others off. Some of the people on this list are very well known as cheats, others are not. Also included on this list are people that put made up names on snakes, as well as CALL THE ANIMAL BY THE NAME OF A PROVEN MORPH WHEN IT IS NOT.

To answer your question, I feel it is a good idea to point out ALL of the fishy ads, ie price too low, animal has no appearance of what it is described as, etc....From what I have seen, most of the cheats prefer to sell "hets" or abarent animals as morphs.

And as far as this normal being pastel, its a JOKE, whether its kept, traded,eaten, or even sold for $200, ITS NORMAL. These are the types of people that will never be dealt with by me.

Alot of people spend too much time and money to prove out these genitic mutations, just to have you label your normal snake as a morph. If you think that pastel is just a word to describe your normal, FIND ANOTHER ONE, ( pretty, odd looking, NORMAL, different, attractive.....)

I will stay away from this thread if at all possible as it kinda gets to me, But to answer the question at hand again, If a fishy ad is spotted, bring it to light for all to see, if it is in fact a scam, then it will be easier for people to see.

 

[bpc]

?!

Terms like: "Pastel" "Screamer" "High Yellow" "Blazin" "Clown" "Jungle" "Super-Anything" "Chocolate" "Moustached" "Spider" "Ladderback" "Circleback" "Reduced pattern" "Fading" "Blood Red" "Sunset Red" "Crisp" "piebald" and on and on and on in a never ending list... They are used, specific to a reptile species, to describe not only the phenotype but the genotype of the animal. Using a term that denotes a genotype when the genotype is not present is fraudulent.

Seamus, did you read that list?!?!?!

Screamer - ok what genotype is screamer?

High Yellow - you've got to be kidding me?

Reduced pattern - define reduced since I've sure it's right there in the Brotherhood of the Ball handbook. Exactly how much does the pattern have to be reduced, give me a percentage.

Crisp -??????? Ghees, I thought we were talking about live snakes, not an Alabama BBQ?


Secondly, Piebald IS A GENETIC TERM. While you guys are out doing all this research perhaps you should pick up a basic genetics text. That is why it is applied to both the pheno and genotype.

I have no problem with terms such as "clown" or "jungle" being used. Those words are not adjectives, as such they bring no inherant meaning to the table. Pastel is an adjective and does bring to mind a certain hue/range of color.

Try this, take a person who knows nothing about ball pythons and show them one, let them look it over and become familiar with it. Next give them a piece a paper and ask them to describe what they think a pastel ball looks like. When they finish up with that one, ask then to describe a clown ball. Which definition do you think they will have the harder time with?

Selling animals under a fradulent label when that label is accompanied by a price increase is ethically and morally incorrect. It's scamming potential buyers into believeing they are buying something they are not and it is misrepresenting the animal.

A. The snake is not for sale.
B. If I decide to sell the snake, I will not mark this snake as a "Pastel Jungle" the industry name for the morph or genotype and phenotype you are so desperate to defend.

Basically, if the appearance is worth $200, then why does the misleading label of Pastel have to be applied?

Well damn Seamus, according to your list there, there's nothing I can call it. Pastel is taken, screamer is out, high yellow... no that's called already. Superpretty....er.. no that wont work. Damn, ok the name I'm using is "REALLY CRAPPY LOOKING BALL PYTHON THAT SEAMUS AND TOM THINK IS A STEAMING DOG TURD AND NOT WORTH MORE THAN 50 BUCKS", will that work, or do you think I need to be more specific. Hope not, because I'm not even sure I can get that on a deli cup.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Piebald is an adjective and it's just a description of something patchy and/or multicolored.

piebald

adj : having sections or patches colored differently and usually brightly; "a jester dressed in motley"; "the painted desert,"; "a particolored dress"; "a piebald horse"; "pied daisies" [syn: motley, multicolor, culticolour, multicolored, multicoloured, painted, particolored, particoloured, pied, varicolored, varicoloured]

Regards.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, now that's the way to make an arguement. But, piebald is also a genetic term (when I get to school tomorrow I'll look it up and give you the definition out of my genetics text form college), I belive piebaldism is the name applied to the condition of having patches of skin which lack chromatophores (cells make make pigment). I'll check it tomorrow. Now, if you can find the term "pastel" in a genetics text somewhere and then next to it have the description of Tom's snake.... hey, I can eat crow with the best of em.

Also, thought I'd throw up another pic of my "normal" ball python. And remember these sitting with it were picked out of 500 while looking for the best colored individuals.

 

[Python Dreams]

Here is a list of Proven Mutations of the Ball Python.

T-Albino
Ghost (Hypomelanistic)
T+Albino (Caramel Albino)
Axanthic
Pastel Jungle
Piebald
Super Pastel Jungle
Spider Webbed
Clown
Genetic Stripe
Mojave
Woma Tiger
Platinum
Pinstripe
Bumble Bee (Pastel-Spider?)
Spot-Nosed
Snow (Axanthic-Albino)
Caramel Glow (Albino-Ghost)
*probably added this year*
Killer Bee (Super Pastel-Spider?)
Albino Spider

I took almost all but 2 of these from Graziani's website. These are the only proven mutations, althought their probably is more popping out this year that I have not heard of.
Some terms are known to be descriptive such as screamer and high yellow, or beautiful, etc... But when you hear Spider, you know your talking about Spider Webbed. When you hear Pied you understand Piebald. When you hear Woma Ball, you understand it as the Woma Tiger. When you hear Caramel Albino, you understand it as a T+Albino and not a snake that you spilled some candy on or had a slight different caramel coloration then other albinos you have seen. Until a true Ghost is hatched out we understand Ghost as Hypomelanistic, not your version of it looks kinda hypo compared to a normal. As far as the Bees and Spider's go, we also dont expect to be buying insects when one purchases these. When one hears Pastel they expect to see a Pastel Jungle. If one hears "Snow" they dont expect that it was hatched outside in the winter... So on and so forth. If you would read the posts thouroughly I did state that you do have beuatiful Ball's (dont you dare take that out of context, haha), but to me if they were females would only be worth $50.00. I have quite a few and I am really not interested in normals of small size. If they were males they would have no value to me at all. It is a different story for someone that is just looking for a good looking pet and if that one strikes them as the one, they probably would pay double or even more for it. Hopefully this can clear up what is actually going on in the Ball industry to let you know what terms represent PROVEN MUTATIONS.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[bpc]

Tom, thanks for the list. There are a couple there I'd never hear of: spot nosed, bumble bee, carmel glow, and of course the last two. In addition, I always thought spider webbed was just "spider."

But when you hear Spider, you know your talking about Spider Webbed. When you hear Pied you understand Piebald. When you hear Woma Ball, you understand it as the Woma Tiger. When you hear Caramel Albino, you understand it as a T+Albino and not a snake that you spilled some candy on or had a slight different caramel coloration then other albinos you have seen

That's where you run into a problem, the "you understand"'s. My point is most people don't understand! Most people have no freaking clue what those things mean. YOU understand, but you are the extreme case senario. My contention is that most people walking around at a reptile show would not understand all of those terms. Now, if you made it a show for The Brotherhood of the Ball members only, then, yes everyone would understand.

Out of 1000 people RANDOMLY SELECTED at the upcoming Daytona Expo, what percentage do you think could quote your definition of Pastel Jungle? Better yet - pastel ball python? I think 20-30% would be high. Especially had we asked before discussing it here. That's my point: you and the Brotherhood of the Ball are not the "norm." The norm is an 18 yr old guy with $250 burning a hole in his pocket, that's wants a "cool looking snake."

 

[meretseger]

A 66% White Piebald

And she was only $300 dollars!

Erin B.

 

[The BoidSmith]

But, piebald is also a genetic term (when I get to school tomorrow I'll look it up and give you the definition out of my genetics text form college), I belive piebaldism is the name applied to the condition of having patches of skin which lack chromatophores (cells make make pigment). I'll check it tomorrow.

Brian,

And you are right, piebald is also a genetic term coined after an animal showing "sections or patches colored differently". Regrettably Pastel is also a genetic name that applies to several species such as minks, parrotlets, cockatiels, bettas, and guppies among them.

You know who else uses the term Pastel as a synonimous for Pastel Jungle?

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/matrix/squares.asp

Regards.

 

[Wilomn]

There are a couple of things I'd really like to know. Who put Seamus in charge? Who made Tom the guy who let's us know proper terminolgy for all currently existing ball python morphs and who is and is not allowed to use those terms?

I never asked anyone to tell my what is morally correct , much less insist that their definition was the only one that could be used. I'm pretty sure that my moral compass is working well even though it may not point in exactly the same direction as the rest of yours. HMMMMM, maybe if I was wont to cram it down someone's throat if they disagreed with me I could be as good as you guys are at informing everyone what is right and what is wrong. But, sad to say it, I just don't want the job. And that combined with the fact that I, unlike some of you-apparently, am not all knowing, makes me leary of taking on such responsibility.

Why is everyone ASSUMING that if Brian sells this snake he will scam some poor newbie? Damn people, are you all getting enough oxegen way up there on those HIGH HIGH, TOUCH THE SKY, HORSES of yours?

It's his snake. He thinks it looks pastel. That's it and you all are so bent out of shape that this is going on what, 10 pages now?

He hasn't claimed it's a genitically inheritable trait. He has stated that were he to sell it he would not claim it was. As long as he doesn't have a reputation for scamming why are you all, and I guess I mean the brotherhood of the balls, so damned uptight about it. It's a cool looking sort of pastel-like snake. Did I miss a meeting of "THE I KNOW ALL ABOUT SNAKES SO MY OPINION IS THE ONLY RIGHT OPINION" club? What's with that? I know a lot and I want to know everything too, how do I join?

I'm not sure but Seamus, haven't you even posted that in this business it's caveat imperitor? If the buyer needs to beware, and in this case there is NO indication that some imaginary buyer would need to be, quite the opposite in fact, then why are you so bent?

Brian has gone out of his way to say that he isn't selling any inheritable morph. Is there some reason I don't know about that should make me doubt his word? If not, then what he does and how he does it is his business and his business alone.

Wes Pollock