Tony Cueto Bad Guy! (reptile shows)

[Seamus Haley]

So i guess adding a JUST a few extra highly infectious and possibly deadly viral or bacterial pathogens is just ok since it is already a sick fest. And yes, when i look at my property tax a huge portion goes to the school system, if you get a child or group of chidlren sick it comes out of my wallet. All so you could blow out some wild gecko for a whopping 20 cent profit.

Got any case histories of human beings in the United States dying from pathenogens that were transmitted second hand from reptiles?

If not... isn't it overdramatic to claim that Brian is spreading deadly bacteria by entering a school building?

Have your taxes been raised because a group of kids got salmonella?

If they have... was it the science lab or the cafeteria that gave it to them?

Since every other statement in the above paragraph is hyperbole or lies, I have to ask... Do you even OWN property to pay taxes on or did the statement just sound like it was a "hard line" so you added it?

Ignoring the original issue for the moment, it's really VERY unacceptable for someone who claims to be a herp keeper to take this kind of non-factual, sensationalistic, overblown, falsified, PETA style "Reptiles are evil and kill you." kind of stance for ANY reason. It's not a valid argument in your debate with Brian, you're making yourself look like a fringe lunatic with your position and you're damaging the entire industry with your statements. Overstating a danger to the degree that you are doing is tantamount to lying. Nobody appreciates liars.

I know a lot of people here have purchased animals from Brian, I've seen it crop up on other threads with great frequency. I'm pretty sure I'm not exactly his favorite person because I disagree with some of his marketing strategies and the terms he uses or proposes using BUT... Every thread that he and I have gotten into it on... People come out of the woodwork to talk about the quality of his animals, the care taken to ensure his imports do not look like junk, the quality of his customer service and his pricing... Accusing him of selling diseases with scales is inappropriate.

My personal sentiments on the thread subject were expressed on page one or two... Stinks that it went down like that Brian, you have my honest sympathies as does Tony. Someone or a group of someones put pressure on a situation in order to get their own way and it worked... This time.

 

[HRoss]

i will post proof of my home ownership when i return. i have no problems answering your questions.

I might sound like a fringe loon, but i would like the opportunity to discuss it in real time when i return. I think that is fair if you are going to proceed with name calling.


The last show i do now is daytona, and i did not have time to walk around this last year to see the problems that have been addressed.

And, i wish there was no property tax here. I am comfortable with my place in the reptile industry.
Until later
Howard

 

[John Albrecht]

After reading about 1/2 this thread...

I realized that there is a factor to this discussion that is being completely ignored. And that is... What is the RIGHT thing to do? While there is a lot of discussion on current business practices and the manner in which one has to be expedient from a business scense, I don't see anyone talking about being an HONORABLE business man. Basically, it sounds like Tony is being blackmailed. If he was an honorable businessman he would not cave in to it. Yes, he might lose some money, but I'd rather be living hand-to-mouth than a lot of money without integrity. I can even understand how someone might not like the fact that a vendor has significantly lower prices OR might have more WC's than we like to have represented OR one of many other possible factors. But it was handled all wrong. Not right. Not honorable.
I like to think that eventually what goes around, comes around. Choosing money over integrity often comes back around for a haunting.
Just my .015

 

[bpc]

Howard, your disease issues are frankly, ridiculous. There is no greater likelyhood of me passing salmonella or E. coli to a student because I handle imported reptiles than there is from me handling c.b. Statiscally speaking there's probably a greater chance of doing so after eating chicken or a med rare hamburger for lunch. That dog just won't hunt.

And if you're so worried about all these diseases what are you doing at the show today? I seriously doubt you're wearing a level 4 bioharzard suit while walking around and seeing your friends. That show is a w.c. allowed show. Careful you might catch ebola!!!!!

And one other thing, there was no smell of death, that's my point! If there had been, do you really think the herp society presidents would have picked my animal to win the "Best Wild Caught Snake" prize? Do you really think Tony would have personally shook my hand, handed me $100, and said, "Congratulations, on your beautiful animals." Do ya Howard?

John, I couldn't agree more. If I had been warned, if I had had dozens of animals pulled from the tables by his vets, if there were tons of complaints coming in, I could see Tony's banning me. It would make sense. But NONE of that has happened. It went from "beautiful animals and Thank you, so much" to you're the scum of the earth, and get out, basically overnight. I'm left wondering what the hell happened.

 

[brucestephenson]

Howard Ross (if that is really his or her name) writes like one of those environmentalist/animal rights activists who seems to be popping up on other forums.
It is my opinion that their organizations have decided to do this to disrupt legitimate informational and educational forums such as the BOI using persons such as him (or her.)
We need great guys like Ritchie Luna to look in to these creeps.

 

[ladyball]

Gee! and I thought MY first post was on the edge! Someone thinks WAY to much and needs to lay off the caffine!!!
I asked my husband to read my posts, he told me I was pmsing again! Sorry guys! I get on a rant when I see injustice in the world! When I KNOW the charges are just bs it gets my back up.
I did go to the show today. My husband said that since I had only heard one side of the story (he didn't read Tony's post on page two, so he didn't see what the fuss was about) that maybe I should be cool, so I was cool. I didn't bother Tony with my "personal touch" to the situation. Probably just as well. The security guards would have looked ridiculous hauling my butt out the door!
I ALMOST broke my boycott and bought a sub-adult wc, but since I promised AND since I didn't know the guy, I decided to wait and see what Brian brought to the herp meeting on Tuesday.
I hope the public outcry here causes other promoters to think twice about giving in to pressure. I can go other places besides shows to see/buy animals. Although I LOVE going to the shows and love seeing and handling the different snakes (helps me decide to buy one for sure!) I don't mind buying from someone I trust.
John Q. Public doesn't need the shows as much as the breeders/sellers do. If the breeders/sellers find another avenue to market their product because promoters give in to pressure from whiny vendors where will that leave those who make money off of the shows?
All the points raised here are VERY good. This has been a good discussion (except for the lunatic ranting about schools). I have learned a lot about this board, and its members. SO far, this is one of the best reptile boards I have found.

 

[brucestephenson]

Yes Lisa I agree,
This has been one of the best topics so far.

 

[Sasheena]

I'm a school teacher too...

And a property owner, of course not in the state of Florida, I'm in that OTHER retiree's paradise: Arizona. I raise reptiles, mice, and rats. Heck, in my classroom I have a rosy boa, a neonate Blotched Kingsnake, and an adult Blotched King. I also have my colony of hairless mice in my classroom. (I'm a math teacher). My hubby has a Ball Python, another of our neonate blotched kings, and our Arizona Mountain King in his classroom. That's six snakes and a cage full of mice that we actually brought into the classroom. I guess the Terror Alert guys better put a target on us and come swarming down!

I don't follow any argument that a taxpayer pays unless we're talking food poisoning. I teach my students Math. Yeah, sure, there might be a snake related micro-organism or two under my fingernails. But I don't TOUCH the kids. I TEACH them. There are probably many more microorganisms on my shoes. Sometimes I wear my shoes into my mouse room. Oh My Gosh. And you know what, this is a farming community. Half of the students in my classroom are out amongst the cows, pigs, goats, sheep, you name it and then in the classroom, and some of them have seriously lacking hygeine.

Every human that walks into a classroom is a walking pathogen. But humans are built to withstand that. Few succumb to the "normal" amount of contamination.

Sounds to me like the guy who has a problem here just doesn't like to support education in any way, and for some reason he thinks that having reptiles and being a teacher is a recipe for increased taxes.

Oh, and you know what? I have at least one student in each of my classes who owns a reptile too. What about their fingernails? Jeepers creepers. And does this guy live in a vacuum?

 

[ladyball]

Sasheena,
You forgot to mention how many of those kids run around home wihtout shoes on! I have a HECK of a time keeping shoes on mine! Gosh, out in the chicken poop, cat poop, dog poop, deer poop, well, you get the idea!
Let's not also forget how many of these kids DON'T wash THEIR hands after touching WILD snakes, lizards, turtles, etc. In a farming community those wild animals are rampant and the kids just LOVE playing "Steve Irwin, the Croc. Hunter" with wc snakes and such!
This guy just needs to get a hobby or something. Maybe needlepoint in a good state institution?

 

[Stardust]

Sasheena, I totally agree with you and am glad you posted.
I too am a home owner, though again not in Florida. My kids handle the animals on a daily basis and they go to school as well. OH NO. I am double doomed, I have also brought my animals to the school to classes to teach the kids about reptiles!
Perhaps another home owner from Florida can come on here to let us know if it is just the Florida reptiles and put at least my mind at ease.

 

[gila7150]

Just an observation

After attending the Tampa show this weekend, I'm going to have to side with Brian on this one. I've seen Brian's displays at several shows in the past and while I'm not really a fan of selling fresh WC's, but his animals have always been in much better shape than a lot of the vendors I saw this weekend. Tony's claim that he's trying to clean up the show doesn't hold much water with me anymore.
Do these sound like things you might find at a "serious" reptile show where you would want to go to spend large sums of money?
- camel rides
- petting zoo
- a declawed FL panther on display w/ large bald spots (probably from demadex mange)
- one vendor was selling dachsund puppies out of a cardboard box in front of their tables.
- some of the vendors were nice enough to set out bowls of candy corn on the deli cups full of fresh imports so each child that walked by could grab a handfull after handling WC herps all day.

The worst in show would have to go to Aline Reptiles. You couldn't get withing 5 feet of their tables or the odor would knock you over. I heard several people commenting on the putrid smell and they had lizards piled up in the tanks. If Tony wants to clean up shop he might want to start with them instead of Brian.

It wasn't all bad and there were quality vendors there as well but Tony's claim that Brian's animals don't meet the standards of the show is nonsense.

 

[brucestephenson]

I thought it was a fine show, and I will give my reasons when I get back from work tonight 11/03/03. Kalaam from Aline Reptiles is one of the most polite and friendly people I have ever met in my 30 years in this field. Did you say anything to him? He probably would have taken positive action. Best Wishes!
Bruce.

 

[gila7150]

Kalaam from Aline Reptiles is one of the most polite and friendly people I have ever met in my 30 years in this field.

That may be very true. I didn't speak with him or observe anyone from Aline being rude to customers. My observation was that many of their tanks were crowded and there was a very strong odor around their tables. I noticed it when I went by and heard others mentioning it. My wife also commented later that it smelled disgusting over there. They had a lot of animals and maybe they were too busy to keep up with the mess they were making at the show.....but since they were guilty of worse conditions than I have ever observed with the person who was banned, I thought it was relevant to this thread.

Did you say anything to him? He probably would have taken positive action.

No, I didn't. I was a customer and I didn't feel like it was my place to tell the guy his table stunk. It was obvious so I'm sure they were aware. I don't have any animosity towards Aline. I was just pointing out that it is hypocritical to ban one vendor and then allow others to get away with worse. If Tony wants to raise the standards of the show, all of his vendors should have to meet those standards.

 

[brucestephenson]

I also have supported Brian being allowed to display.
I too did notice a smell in that rear corner of the expo, but I could not find the source. I believe that it must have been something dead in a bag or a box not on display. My theory is that whoever owned it was saving it for refunding proof or some other reason. It, of course, should have been removed from the premises.
I looked at all of Aline's animals and thought they were well treated and not overcrowded for a vendor display. The tanks were very clean when I made several rounds on both days, and Kalaam had some great, unusual things.
It was a fine show with a good amount of high end stuff. You could have negotiated a good price on albino boas, albino balls, piebald balls, etc. You could see what you are getting as opposed to the internet, which in my opinion the internet is very, very risky.
The legendary manufacturer Neodesha was there with their very fine cages. The item offered that impressed me the most were the well started pure diamond pythons that Tom Carlton of Cypress Creek had in numbers which he hatched himself. I believe that this was a kind of a first at an expo and the price was reasonable at around $800. I started in the old days when these were unobtainable or considered impossible to keep alive. (The secret appears to be keeping them at seasonal temperatures like you would maintain and then cool down Florida colubrids for breeding.)

 

[Jovcham]

I went to the show this past weekend as well. The smell everyone is talking about was from a turtle tank at that booth. The water was brown and you could not see the animals inside, it was so nasty. I also noticed 3 dead animals at rk reptiles and their mellers chameleons and a few others were very crouded and in bad condition. ie bite marks, one had an eye fused shut.

I have no idea how these conditions are better than the guy who started this post.

I was shocked that no one mentioned or corrected the turtle tank in the one vendor. No one bothered to take out the dead animals from rk's booths, nor do I know how the mellers with the fused eye get by the vet checks. Many of their chameleons also had runny or crusty noses which could very well be respiratory infection, how did these get by the vet checks?

I do not know much about snakes so I cant judge those tables.

I would also like to mention that in my oppionion this was a poor show from the puppies for sale, someone was selling a fox, another was selling birds. The bad smell, dead animals. I saw several tables of animals not labled CB or WC. The people with candy at their tables, the roasted nut booth. The camel and others that were mentioned. Its just not a herp show. . it was more like a circus/flea market. If tony was trying to clean up his shows why did he allow all of this?
Like I said before this is all just my oppionion nothing more.

 

[brucestephenson]

I think that we should now ask Aline and RK to respond in their own defenses, since I have to respectfully disagree with the other writers. Bruce.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

First off where were there any dead animals in my cages? We go through all of our cages all day long to ensure that there is nothing wrong with any of them. As for the over crowding, well there is not alot of room for all the animals at a show and they are housed in a little smaller than normal temporary enclosures but not so much that it is harmful to the animals. There was a Mellers that had an eye problem and he was not for sale. He was there so we could care for him without him being left at our facility. Everyone that looked at the Mellers was informed this. His eye was a result of the importation process as well as are certain marks on bodies on imported Chameleons. On Sunday the remaining Mellers we had were pulled and placed in another enclosure behind the table because they were showing signs of stress from being at the show and were not for sale for that reason. There were and are none of the animals that have a "runny nose" from any URI or other heath problems. There was 1 customer who said something to my wife about one of the Panthers having a runny nose but we checked the animal very closely and there was no sign of anything wrong. This same person made me an offer on that Panther female and when I did not accept it they seemed to get upset and said they could get it cheaper on KS, then later came back to purchase her anyway until they found out that she is related and from the same breeder as their present animal. (is this person you Jovanna?) Some of my animals were purchased on Sunday from a friend who is also a Veterinarian for his personal collection and breeding projects. If my animals looked in bad shape and or unhealthy he would not have purchased anything from me and he certainly would have told me. Also if my animals were in such poor shape as you state then why did you not point out them and why did we get comments all weekend that our Chameleons looked awesome and everyone was coming to our table to get their animals? I only had one other time during the weekend that one of my Fisher Chameleons did not look good that a customer asked me about and he was removed from the display and placed into a cage behind the booth for TLC. The rest of the weekend was uneventful.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Aline Reptiles Tables

I also spent a little time at Aline Reptiles tables. The only smell I noticed was the normal smell that is associated with mammals like the ones at the tables next to his. Their enclosures were not too over crowded that I saw and I did not smell any rank or bad smelling smells.

 

[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

Well, I am almost late for a Bio Diversity lab practical so i'm going to be as quick about this as I can. We were vendors at the Tampa show and had a great weekend. We ALWAYS request to be placed next to RK Reptiles as we don't want to be placed next to a unprofessional vendor. I saw the mellers cham in question and it was NOT for sale and was recieving care periodically through the show (if the animal was left at home it may very well have not made it through the weekend). As for the smells in the show,you really have to think about it. You have over 100,000 animals all under one roof consisting of insects, arachnids, amphibians, reptiles, and mammals, all which will defacte sometime during the weekend. You can pretty much expect to find some unpleasant smells in there. However there is no excuse for displaying the fecal matter or the smells that accompany it. We do periodic checks on all our animals at the show and keep them clean as possible, as when I see fecal matter accumulated in a cage or deli cup and I figure if it's not spotless, what kind of care do they recieve while not on display???. I believe a big part of sales IS appealing to the senses. Our animals are displayed as nicely and professionally as possible. We even go to the extend of sometimes placing stick up air freshners underneath our tables so when customers do walk by they get a pleasant smell as bad odors do turn me off a table. BUT, any table that has animals will have a odor or two during the show. When one of my geckos defacates and the display is opened immediatly to clean the matter and be removed to a trash can away from our table, smells do smell folks. I did see Alines table as I always check them out to see any new Uroplatus that they have coming in. I noticed some strong odors there as well, but nothing one large tortoise couldn't be responsible for. I didn't see the turtles in the brown water and if I had it would have been the last bit of business I ever would have given to Aline.
As for Tony's shows. I don't feel there's a better one out there. Yes I think Camel rides are misplaced, but to be honest one of my customers whom spends quite bit of cash with us at every show, sends his wife and kids to the petting zoo so he can wheel and deal without interruption. Funny enough though, without the camel I may have not made that sale as it seems. I see nothing wrong with roasted peanuts or any concession at a show, people get hungry and to be honest I don't want them to leave the show to get something to eat. There are bathrooms availible to all for proper handwashing and I myself and most vendors supply customers with hand sanitizers. I did see the candy corns on a deli display and thought it was kind of nice people were getting into the spirit of Halloween, but do agree maybe it would have been better off elsewhere. Tony is working hard to make this a better show and I think it's obvious. This thread has gotten way off base as this is supposed to be about getting Brian back at the show which I agree with. To Brian I apologize for not speaking with Tony yet as I feel you should be given another chance. I'm not sure if I can or will have any influence on his decision, but I will let my thughts be known professionally and courteously. Overall the show was just great, and the only complaint I have is there were only a couple dozen Rhacodactylus geckos of which half we had and most sold so maybe I have no complaints.

Respectfully,
Michael Beberman
Mother Gecko

 

[alfon76]

Hi all:

I went to the show with 2 purposes which were to say hi to a lot of friends/vendors and to purchase some animals from Rob. The show seemed as good as it always is except that it wasn't as organized as previous times.

I am not sure what Jovana is talking about regarding Rob's cages and animals being in bad shape. I checked every single animal and every single cage to make sure that I got choice animals. Rob had Meller's at the show and all of them were behind the table and not for sale. I went there to pick animals for my own collection and breeding project and I couldn't be happier with the way they looked. Some were even eating right in front of me while we were at the table. I am not sure what more can be expected from a vendor other than clean cages, healthy animals, well labeled animals, and good prices. That is exactly what I saw at Rob's table and that's why I bought my animals from him and will continue to do so.

From a Veterinary Medicine point of view I can tell you that some of Rob's animals had problems typically associated with importation like scratches, bite marks, etc but any animals that looked remotely in bad shape were not for sale. He might have had them within visual range but it is because of limited space and not because he wanted to sell them. URI? I have to completely disagree as I got to the show at 11:00 AM more or less and left at about 5:00 PM and most of that time was spent at Rob's table. During all that time I did not see 1 chameleon lifting its head, gasping for air, coughing, wheezing, blowing bubbles or anything of the sort that pointed to a possible URI. If that would have been the case I can guarantee you I would have come back home with a few extra chameleons because Rob would have given them to me for treatment. Most importantly, I did not see 1 dead or dying animal at Rob's table.

I am giving a personal opinion as everyone else here but mine is not based on friendship alone, but also in personal experience with the animals. I would be very happy to post pics of the recently aquired chameleons to prove how good they look.