TW International Wyatt in Texas

[Ghi Reptiles]

I may have missed it but did the labwork get back yet?

 

[Scramblermike]

I Finally lost one of the three

Well,
I have been treating these three snakes over the last two months. Not sure if whats going on here is what happened to Jen. However it seems like I have two left to try to save. One being the original pastel that seemed treated and is now displaying the bubbles and sickness once again. Contacted Seavs guess I will be getting more meds and keep trying. Keep you all posted. Later Mike

 

[liquidleaf]

Sorry to hear that. Will you be getting a necropsy and lab tests on the one that died?

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Matt, no results yet. This is going to take awhile because they're working on 4 bodies that all came in at different times.

Mike, if one of your animals died, please freeze it and have your vet get in contact with mine. He can send it to the same lab mine are at and I will pay for the necropsy and pathology on it -- it would be important to know if your snake(s) do or do not have the same thing mine do.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I bought a Het Pied male
I never got any documents for my animal after several emails, phone calls!

Phil, At the beginning of month Wyatt stated his “fixing” to work on those little customer service problems. Have you received your paperwork yet? Have you even received a return phone call?

12-02-2007
Dennis, No fixing to work on those and fix some BS that my ex partner caused..

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Updated posted to my blog -- 3 more snakes have become sick, including my best breeder female and my albino female. After doing a lot of research into it and discussing it with my vet, the new theory is OPMV -- Ophidian Paramyxovirus. When compared to what is written about it in the latest Mader book and online by Dr. Elliot Jacobson at the University of Florida (same lab we sent the bodies to), the symptoms/stages/timelines are identical and it would explain the mode of transmission (airborne). Because I live in a house with one shared ventilation system, moving the sick ones to my bedroom wouldn't/didn't do squat in preventing it from spreading. The lab was closed throughout the Holidays, so Dr. Gordon called them this week to find out if they have anything yet and to mention what he now believes is going on. There is only one good thing about this being the most likely case -- there is a vaccine out there that people have tried experimentally in cases of reptile OPMV (giving it to the remaining healthy snakes) and it has worked in preventing any further illnesses/deaths. So we're trying to get ahold of it so we can start treating the animals I have left with hopes that it will finally stop the losses.

I have been trying to get ahold of Mike (Scramblermike) above to find out how his snakes are doing, if they are getting better, if he had any testing done on the one that died, etc. Have not heard back yet -- but I am trying to share our info with him so that his vet can look into his illnesses further and find out if it is the same, and if it is, then offer the same experimental treatment to possibly save the rest of his snakes (if he has any).

Watching and waiting...

 

[John Q Reptiles]

Any additional info on the source?

Jen, if the vet research indicates "OPMV" and if "the symptoms/stages/timelines are identical" to what is "written about it in the latest Mader book", do you have any more information about the source? Was this lurking in your collection and spread due to poor quarantine or does the research from your vet and information in the Mader book indicate that it came in with the snake from Wyatt?
John Quinones
AKA John Q
John Q Reptiles

 

[Keith Northrop]

Wyatt....How deep

are the dead Balls??.......Who has bought from you lately??? Damn gimme another shot of that Baytril......Oh...Knock on Wood....(Knock!Knock!Knock!).....the sound of me hitting my own head......Are any of your snakes sick?

 

[ToshaMc]

OPMV is much like IBD in many ways - including symptoms - Jen since you specifically said in one of your posts that it didn't look like IBD nor have you ever mentioned tremors or star gazing, nor did you mention any lesions being present in the necropsy it likely isn't OPMV. As well OPMV is transmitted primarily through fluid exchange - not airborne - with the exception of fluid droplets expelled through the air. OPMV has been shown to be asymptomatic in carrier animals (tested positive for having the virus) for up to 10 months - every animal exposed to the virus should be considered a carrier of the virus for a minimum of 24 months. Given the basics behind OPMV I'd venture it is less likely that the het was the carrier and more likely that it was an "established" animal in the collection where husbandry practices might have been more lax - however we've already established questionable husbandry so it's likely possible that after handling the het - she then spread it through the rest of the collection.

IMO - there should be less speculation posted and we should just wait for the pathology reports.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

This is from the vet that heads most OPMV research and happens to be running the lab that my bodies were sent to and is working on my case:

http://sacs.vetmed.ufl.edu/Services/ZooMed/Pmyx.html

I already e-mailed him on Saturday and he responded today, asking for my phone number so he can call me tomorrow and discuss this further.

From his page:

Transmission most likely occurs by virus being expelled into the air as droplets from the respiratory system. Virus gaining access to water bowls and pools of water may persist for considerable periods of time. Transmission of virus via the digestive tract through feces is also a possibility. Although transovarian or transuterine transmission has not been firmly established, this may also be involved in the spread of the virus.

Considering that the snakes that have gotten sick/died have been in separate tubs, separate racks, and separate rooms with no shared anything, no handling, and no contact between each other, airborne is the only feasible transmission left.

According to reports in the literature and our recent experience with epizootics in private collections, once snakes start dying of OPMV infection, the mortality within a collection generally progresses fairly rapidly and peaks at about one month following initial deaths. It then declines through 2-3 months.

Cages of ill snakes should be cleaned and completely disinfected with a solution of 0.15% sodium hypochlorite. Chlorox is 5.25% sodium hypochlorite; a 1:33 dilution can be used. Cages should remain empty for at least 2 weeks before introduction new animals. Additionally, as a rule, new snakes should not be introduced into a colony of snakes in which there is active OPMV infection. Minimally, 2 months should lapse following the last death from OPMV before introducing new animals. Needless to say, ill snakes should be removed from the collection and placed in a quarantine room.

This is where we got the minimum 2-month expiration timeframe from.

Initially Pseudomonas and Aeromonas were isolated from the respiratory tract of dead snakes and the disease was originally thought to be bacterial in origin. Eventually a virus with morphological and biochemical properties of certain myxoviruses was isolated and was tentatively placed in the paramyxovirus subgroup.

In the original epizootic involving fer-de-lance, clinical signs lasted 5 to 12 days and progressed through 4 stages. During stage 1 there was a loss of muscle tone, with affected snakes exhibiting a "stretched out" linear posture with the head slightly elevated. During stage 2, which lasted 1 to 2 days, snakes showed abnormal activity. Affected snakes crawled about restlessly and kept their mouths partially opened. Their tongues were incompletely withdrawn into the sheathes and their pupils were extremely dilated. Stage 3 was seen from several hours to one day preceding death. The mouth was kept completely open and the snakes expelled a purulent material from the glottis. Stage 4 was seen from several minutes to one hour preceding death. The mouth was kept fully opened, the pupils were dilated, and animals were excessively active.

In those snakes seen in the terminal stages of the disease, immediately preceding death, these animals generally manifest a convulsive behavior. This should not be confused with primary central nervous system disease described in rock rattlesnakes. These are agonal signs and are rather non-specific. Snakes may twist around, become flaccid and quiet for a period of time, and initiate these death-throws all over again.

In many of the outbreaks on OPMV infection, minimal or no clinical signs are noted by the keeper/owner. Often snakes will be found dead in their cage early in the morning, having died the night before. Many of these snakes appear to be in good health with good weight and normal behavior prior to death. Clinical signs can be subtle or non-specific such as off feed for one to two weeks. Although clinical signs in the earlier stages of the disease are often subtle, abnormal respiratory sounds are audible when ill snakes are manually restrained. If the oral cavity is examined, exudate may be seen within the glottal opening. Some snakes die with blood expelled from the glottis and filling the oral cavity (Figure2). In a group of Siamese cobras (Naja naja kaouthia), the major consistent clinical signs was polyuria (increased urination). These snakes became ill during a die-off of rattlesnakes in the same room; paramyxovirus was isolated from dead rattlesnakes.

It is the respiratory system that appears to be targeted by OPMV infections. Gross changes ranged from diffuse hemorrhage of the lung and air sac system to diffuse to focal accumulations of caseous necrotic cellular debris (Figure 3). Other organs which may be involved on a gross level are the pancreas and liver. Pancreatic hyperplasia is not uncommonly encountered in infected crotalid snakes. The authors have seen this quite commonly in timber rattlesnakes, Crotalus horridus. In the liver, areas of necrosis and formation of multifocal firm nodules (granulomas) may be seen.

The pulmonary septa are often thickened with edema fluid and infiltrated with mixed inflammatory cells including macrophages, lymphocytes, and plasma cells; giant cells are occasionally seen.

There is no specific treatment for snakes showing clinical signs of OPMV infection. Since most affected snakes die with severe gram-negative respiratory tract infections, treating ill snakes with appropriate antibiotics is indicated.

In the liver, lesions range from areas of caseation necrosis to granuloma formation. By special staining, gram-negative microorganisms are often demonstrated in these lesions. A variety of bacterial organisms have been isolated from these lesions with Pseudomonas spp. being the most common isolates. Bacterial organisms can invade the liver either from showering of bacteria from the gastrointestinal tract or from secondary bacterial invaders in the respiratory tract. Paramyxoviruses in mammals are known to have immunosuppressive effects and most likely results in a compromised immune system in snakes. Thus, it is not surprising that these snakes often succumb to secondary bacterial pathogens.

Every single bolded section in the above was documented in the necropsy report on the 2nd dead female -- liver necrosis, lung swelling [edema], excessive fluid around the lungs, lung hemorrage, and secondary pseudomonas infection. I even documented the het clown's loss of muscle tone/weight and linear appearance in the pictures in this thread. She arrived to me already slightly thin, and became severely worse as she got sicker. In regard to the "final stage" immediately before death, my vet already originally assumed the convulsing had occured as each body was found upside down (belly up) and twisted into groteque forms, with the mouth hanging open and filled with blood -- also described above.

If you go back and read my prior posts, you will see this already covered.

As in mammals, a positive titer is simply indicative of exposure to OPMV. Based upon a single sample, it would be impossible to make a statement about presence of virus and shedding status. If 2 samples are obtained form the same animal at a 2-4 week interval, and a rising titer can be demonstrated, this would be supportive evidence for recent OPMV infection.

This goes back to what I was explaining about the plan to conduct titers on the remaining animals to figure out who else has been infected.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

it's likely possible that after handling the het - she then spread it through the rest of the collection.

Actually, it is least likely possible because I don't handle my animals unless to weigh them on the 5th of every month or they eliminated and need the substrate changed. Considering that they generally "go" only every 3-5 weeks, handling is pretty minimal. The het was handled only 3 times in her time here -- when I moved her from my snake room to my bedroom 2 weeks after she had become actively symptomatic, when she urinated shortly before death and needed her tub cleaned, and after she died and the body had to be brought to the vet. I wore gloves for every single instance (as I always do when cleaning tubs and dealing with sick/unsanitary snakes [poo painting anyone?]), and always sanitize my hands afterward. I work in health care, this is something I do without even thinking about it. It's automatic. I do not handle my snakes for any other reason, especially when they arrive after shipping -- that is asking to get bitten. The bag is placed in the tub and they crawl out on their own -- then the bag is thrown away.

This is why transmission has to be airborne -- there is no other shared contact source -- not even my hands.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Jen, if the vet research indicates "OPMV" and if "the symptoms/stages/timelines are identical" to what is "written about it in the latest Mader book", do you have any more information about the source? Was this lurking in your collection and spread due to poor quarantine or does the research from your vet and information in the Mader book indicate that it came in with the snake from Wyatt?
John Quinones
AKA John Q
John Q Reptiles

According to my vet, the likeliness of OMPV indicates even more strongly that it came from Wyatt's snake. The way that some particular animals reacted to this virus with instant severe symptoms and death shortly after leads him to believe that it was introduced by the het and subsequently spread via air flow. Had it been in my collection prior, the weak snakes that succombed so quickly (like the baby and my females that laid eggs this summer -- that is the weakest a snake can get) would have done so far sooner. According to the Mader book, the site I posted above, and other cases of OMPV posted online, snakes became symptomatic anywhere from 24 hours to 3 days after introduction of the carrier snake (that never touched the other snakes -- was just in the same room) -- which explains why Dizzy came down with it so fast and died so quickly after, and others somehow lived with it for 2 months before dying.

 

[Cat_72]

Also from the article Jen noted:

Although OPMV infections have occurred throughout the year, in many cases, epizootics have been experienced from January to May. Replication of the vitrus in vitro has been demonstrated to be temperature-dependent with an optimum temperature for growth at 30°C and a range of temperature for growth of 23°C to 32°C. Thus, possibly a latent infection may become activated if snakes are kept at suboptimal environmental temperatures.

How long was that het in transit, and how "suboptimal" were its temps?

OPMV is much like IBD in many ways - including symptoms - Jen since you specifically said in one of your posts that it didn't look like IBD nor have you ever mentioned tremors or star gazing, nor did you mention any lesions being present in the necropsy it likely isn't OPMV.

If that is true, why does the article given say this?

In many of the outbreaks on OPMV infection, minimal or no clinical signs are noted by the keeper/owner. Often snakes will be found dead in their cage early in the morning, having died the night before.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Also from the article Jen noted:

How long was that het in transit, and how "suboptimal" were its temps?

She was in transit for 3 full days with no heat packs at the end of September in Michigan/Wisconsin (she was stuck between Detroit and here according to the tracking info).

My snakes have had the same temperatures for 3 years -- the room does not go below 76 and I do not cool my snakes for breeding at all.

 

[Cat_72]

3 days in transit....no heat packs....I'm sure she wasn't sitting at "optimal temps" during those 3 days.

 

[Melissa_Khrs]

I've seen him still advertising. I hope no one else gets taken.

 

[Scramblermike]

Hello Everybody,
It has been a while since I have been on here. Been really busy with my Construction business. Wanted to see how things were going for Jen? Haven't seen much new up here. Fortunatley for me seems as everything is back to normal here at my place. The carrier that came from Wyatt no longer wheezes no longer coughs and is eating and sheeding regularly. The eye that was damaged has shed back to normal again thanks to the eye medication Dr. Stahl had given me to treat it with daily. I am glad that things are back in swing but I hope things are better for Jen. Jen If you read this I do have a normal male you can have if you want him. Let me know when things stabalize and we can work something out. Later Mike

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Mike, it may be important to mention that 2 of your snakes came down with it as well and passed away despite treatment, before the carrier seemed to get better. My hope is that he's completely better and not just in a dormant pattern, waiting to come down with it again.

As for me, I have lost 11 animals thus far, have 4 more sick ones and 7 healthy-appearing ones. Despite all what has happened and not having been bred since way back in October, 3 of my females continued with the breeding process (ovulation, shedding) and are gravid. One is healthy, 2 are very sick. Until we know what we're dealing with, I don't know yet if the eggs from the sick females will have to be destroyed. If so...well, that's just more loss. All animals were given Colombovac (healthy and sick), the sick ones are being treated with yet another different treatment of double antibiotics to try to keep them alive. Odds are it won't do much. We euthanized 2 sick females to get fresh samples to send to Dr. Jacobsen at the lab in Florida, he expects to have results by this week or next week.

 

[Lynn]

Mike, it may be important to mention that 2 of your snakes came down with it as well and passed away despite treatment, before the carrier seemed to get better. My hope is that he's completely better and not just in a dormant pattern, waiting to come down with it again.

As for me, I have lost 11 animals thus far, have 4 more sick ones and 7 healthy-appearing ones. Despite all what has happened and not having been bred since way back in October, 3 of my females continued with the breeding process (ovulation, shedding) and are gravid. One is healthy, 2 are very sick. Until we know what we're dealing with, I don't know yet if the eggs from the sick females will have to be destroyed. If so...well, that's just more loss. All animals were given Colombovac (healthy and sick), the sick ones are being treated with yet another different treatment of double antibiotics to try to keep them alive. Odds are it won't do much. We euthanized 2 sick females to get fresh samples to send to Dr. Jacobsen at the lab in Florida, he expects to have results by this week or next week.

Oh Jen... I am so so very sorry...Hang in there sweetie....

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Here's an update on my situation, and a new development regarding another case.

In January of 2008, I had 2 sick females euthanized in order to take fresh tissue and body fluid samples to have sent to the lab in Florida. After that, I was able to obtain Colombovac, the vaccine proven to stop OPMV in Europe. It is banned by the FDA in the U.S., but Dr. Gordon was able to obtain a special permit to import it from Germany for our purposes. I gave it to the "Healthy 7" that I had secluded in my room, as well as the last 4 remaining sick animals -- my male mojave, my male pastel, and 2 females that despite only being bred 1-2 times each way back in October, ovulated anyway and were heavily gravid. We also began a double antibiotic treatment for the 3 sick ones in a last ditch effort to save them. The goal was to kill the secondary pneumonia and help them gain strength to fight the virus on their own. Shortly after, I lost the pastel and the mojave at the beginning of February. They were too extremely sick to have made any kind of recovery. They were my 11th and 12th losses since this all began. Aside from them, the vaccinations and treatments seemed to finally work -- the Healthy 7 remained well, and the 2 sick gravid females started getting better. Since then, everything has been fine -- the two remaining sick females laid 12 fertile eggs between the two of them, and are now healthy in all appearances and eating. The Healthy 7 are still illness free, eating, and doing well. Lucky’s clutch just hatched today (Lucky is one of the 7), and I ended up with 1 normal and 4 mojaves (one normal didn’t make it). The 2 previously-sick females still have a very faint, almost inaudible wheeze on occasion, but Dr. Gordon says it is pretty much like asthma or chronic bronchitis -- caused by scarring of their lungs from the hemorraging. He says they’ll probably have that for the rest of their lives. Still no real information from Dr. Jacobsen, other than an e-mail he sent the Marshfield Clinic (lab that handles Dr. Gordon’s routine labwork and had initially worked on this case). He said he got no reaction to the OPMV test, but a strong reaction to the reovirus test -- so it’s a reovirus. They’re thinking a viral cancer or possibly going back to the rhabdovirus theory. Either way, they feel this is something entirely new and is going to take more research to nail down. So the vaccine didn’t do squat -- it just coincided with the virus dying off on its own. The snakes would have survived it regardless of the vaccine or not -- but he feels the antibiotics did play a big part because by killing the secondary pneumonia, it allowed them to fight it better. We still need to find out more. One big question was whether the eggs would be OK or if they had to be discarded. The answer from both ends was that the risk of vertical transmission is extremely low and that they would be just fine. No one is actively ill any more so it’s pretty much done and over with.

Now in regard to a new related case -- a veterinarian in Colorado by the name of Jason Brodnik has contacted me after reading my MySpace blog, and asked what seller it was in Texas that I got the het clown female from. When I told him, he responded and asked if I could confirm the e-mail address of the seller with one that he had for him, and stated that he recently purchased a snake from Wyatt that is now severely ill and has made another of his snakes ill with identical symptoms, and resistance to identical attempted treatments. I encouraged him to post here, but he's not much of a forum poster. I asked if I could post our e-mails back and forth, and he gave me permission. Here is everything from start until now -- the beginning messages were on MySpace, the rest via e-mail.

Mar 30, 2008 2:58 PM Flag as Spam or Report Abuse [?]

Subject: sick snakes in texas

Hi,
I am sorry to hear about everything you've been through. I have great concerns now about my collection. I am a veterinarian in Colorado, and have a ball collection. I recently bought a snake from Texas, and now it has pneumonia, as does the male it was put with. I am obviously concerned about the rest of my collection. Could you please tell me who it was you got your snake from? Thank you.
Dr. Jason Brodnik
303-903-6603
dr. jay@hotmail. com

Apr 2, 2008 3:50 AM

RE: sick snakes in texas

I bought the carrier snake from Damian Wyatt, who formerly owned TW International. He has sold/traded to many people in Texas and Oklahoma, so I wouldn't be surprised if he infected others. If you'd like to talk to my vet, I'm sure he'd be more than willing to share what we went through, what the symptoms were, what treatments we tried, what tests we did, etc. He has been in contact with vets all over the country to try to get this figured out and share what we've found, so others can be prepared. I'm sure he'd like to speak to another colleague. His name is Dr. Mark Gordon at the Fitchburg Veterinary Hospital. Their number is (608) 271 - 4212. I think he's off work on Wednesdays but will be there Thursday. I haven't been updating my MySpace blog, so if you want to keep up, visit my website blog. The newest developements are there.

www. pinkladyconstrictors. com

Click on "Journal".

Apr 2, 2008 10:27 AM

RE: sick snakes in texas

Thank you. Can you confirm that their email is cat_fish82@yahoo. com ? I thought the people I bought from were named Kristin and Wyatt, but maybe that's the first and last name?

Apr 2, 2008 4:24 PM

RE: sick snakes in texas

Yes, that is his second e-mail -- his other one is [email protected] . Kristin is his girlfriend/wife -- Wyatt is the guy, and that is his last name, which he goes by legally. I can't believe that is still selling snakes. Have you posted this on the BOI? You STRONGLY need to do that -- I have my ordeal posted there and one other person came forward with sick snakes from him -- having you (a veterinarian) as a third person who now has sick snakes from this loser, would seal his fate. PLEASE go post there -- it is going to help all of us that he screwed.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105621

Apr 2, 2008 6:38 PM

RE: sick snakes in texas

Hi,
Thank you. I have sent him an email asking him to respond to this. I have cultured the secretions, and submitted a paramyxovirus titer. No improvement, and but still only one other snake is sick. Do you know the name of the other individual who purchased a paramyxo snake from him? Where should I post this, on the ball forum? This was his email yesterday, which he says he has no sick ones but admits to having treating resp. infections previously:

Jason,
To my knowledge all of my herps are doing fine with no s/s of any illness. I have been downsizing the collection allot. This was due to my pt status increasing in the Emergency Room that I work at and also because of the birth of my baby. I appologize if this has caused you any problems and I hope the female gets to feeling better. If it was me I would go to your local feed store and get a bovine med called Tylan 200 and with you being a Vet you will know what I mean. I have used Tylan 200 in the past and met with great results when it comes to RI s/s. Let me know how it goes.

Thanks,
Wyatt

Apr 2, 2008 10:05 PM

RE: sick snakes in texas

Wyatt has denied this from the beginning, he isn't going to accept responsibility. Tylan will not do anything -- we used every single antibiotic available to no avail. If you catch up on my journal, we ended up having to import Colombovac from Germany as it was proven to stop OPMV in collections in the UK. It is banned by the FDA here, but my vet was able to obtain a permit from the FDA to import it for this purpose. We just ordered another bottle so I can premptively vaccinate any new additions just as a precaution over the next year. He can get one for you as well (or I'm sure you can submit your own permit). I called Dr. Gordon's office today and had his tech leave him a note about your situation, and I'd like to get your number so I can have him give you a call. He can tell you what we've done this far and where we're at. Our lab samples all went to Dr. Elliot Jacobsen at the University of Florida, and he still has them.

The BOI is the Board of Inquiry -- where people post all transactions, good and bad, to prevent others from suffering the same fate. It also is almost like a court room, where bad guys get put on trial by their peers and feel the pressure to make things right. My virus situation was put on Wyatt's thread, as well as Mike's (the other guy who lost snakes because he recieved a sick one from Wyatt). The link I sent is the exact thread you need to post this situation on.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105621

Do you have an e-mail address we can communicate through? I hate MySpace messaging because I can't add links, pics, etc.

Jen

Apr 3, 2008 1:12 AM

RE: sick snakes in texas

Jennifer,
Thank you very much for your effort with your vet and the vaccine. I had hoped that I could obtain it. My email address is gentlepetcare@hotmail. com. My name is Dr. Jason Brodnik, P. O. Box 33293, Northglenn, CO, 80233, 303-903-6603

I posted a thread on the ball python forum inquiring as to any other victims, but it was removed by someone after about 30 minutes. The paramyxovirus titer I drew will be delivered to Florida. I have considered some antiviral drugs (interferon and acyclovir) but Dr. Mader didn't advise using them, but I may consider if all else fails. I would be very interested in hearing from your vet and the odds of obtaining the vaccine. Thanks again.

Apr 3, 2008 2:14 PM

RE: sick snakes in texas

He should be able to get it no problem.

[2nd paragraph omitted as it discusses a third party in an unrelated private matter] - Jen

This mess has to be posted on the BOI, not the ball python forums, because it is considered business discussion. That is why it was removed. You have to post it on the thread that I linked you to. I'll e-mail it to you, it may work better there.

I sincerely hope you don't lose as many animals as I did. This has been the most painful thing I've ever gone through. We had considered using Interferon as well, but then decided against it because it can be hard on their systems and they were already so weak. I'm going to call Dr. Gordon again today and give him your info, so he should give you a call.

At this point Jason e-mailed Wyatt regarding my case, and Wyatt responded some ass backwards response to him that he forwarded to me. This was my response to Jason:

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: het pied
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:19:48 -0500

Once again, just like he proved in the thread, he has no idea what he's talking about and pulls things out of his rear end. The 2 WC females I purchased were almost 1 full year before I got the het clown from him -- you can verify these dates by my posts on the forums he mentions. One died within 5 days of arrival from a regular bacterial RI that she was sick with before she got here, and the other was doing great, went on to lay her eggs, then feed, then I sold her and her babies. Neither of them were here within many months of me recieving his het clown, and neither were in my main collection whatsoever. They were not bought from a pet store, they were bought from Trey Bell, a well known importer who acknowledged that the one female was ill and still owes me a replacement. The rest of my collection was thriving -- feeding, breeding, doing just fine. Never had a sick snake in the 4 years I have kept them -- haven't even had a female not take to a male and fail to lay eggs -- they are all doing successfully well. The female snake that died AFTER his het clown arrived was a captive bred breeder female I'd had for months. She had been feeding and breeding 100% perfectly until the het clown arrived -- she then came down with the RI symptoms, we tried to treat her, and she subsequently died a week later. 2 days after she showed symptoms, the het clown became desperately ill as well. The het clown was never "feeding for weeks" -- she ate 2 rats 24 hours after arriving and then I noticed her symptoms. The symptoms very well could have been there from the day she arrived because I do not handle new acquisitions at all -- the bag is placed in the tub and they are allowed to crawl out on their own and I leave them be. Wyatt conveniently forgets to mention that he shipped the het clown via DHL, she was delayed in chilly Wisconsin September weather for 3 days inside a completely sealed box with no heat pack. This is all documented on the BOI with his tracking number results from DHL -- as is everything I stated above. As Dr. Jacobsen discusses in his report about OPMV, carrier snakes often had the virus brought on by exposure to cold. Wyatt wants to wonder why it has taken so long to get the blood tests back? Because the lab in Florida is swamped -- they've had the bodies since October, the euthanized sample snakes since January.

Anyway, all of the above and more is layed out on his BOI thread and has been for many months. I find it curious that if his het clown didn't cause my losses, then why is it that two more people who have bought snakes from him have since had respiratory deaths that do not respond to antibiotics?

~* Jen *~

RE: het pied‏
From: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])
Sent: Thu 4/03/08 3:35 PM
To: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])

Thank you. Do you know who the other two are?


Dr. Jason Brodnik
Certified Level One Veterinary Laser Surgeon
International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management

P.O. Box 33293
Northglenn, CO 80233

303-903-6603

RE: het pied‏
From: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])
Sent: Thu 4/03/08 5:00 PM
To: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])

You and Michael Ogburn (he posted his experience on the thread).

~* Jen *~

P.S.‏
From: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])
Sent: Thu 4/03/08 6:18 PM
To: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])

OK, I spoke to Dr. Gordon just now and gave him your info. He's going to give you a call tonight. The last communication he got from Elliot Jacobsen was from March 17th and that there was no reaction to a paramyxo test but strong reaction to a reovirus test -- so they're pursuing that. Elliot feels that this is a whole new ball game because reoviruses rarely present respiratory problems so this may be something new or mutated and he has to do more tests. He said not to tell me anything until he knew more, but Mark knows I'm dying over here waiting to find something out. The consensus is that because it isn't OPMV, the vaccine didn't do squat and the snakes I have left had a stronger immune system and were for whatever reason would have lived through it regardless. The problem is, there is no way to know if and which ones are still carrying it, therefore I can't bring anything new in any more (unless we find out differently). My breeding business is shot and my collection is done for.

If this all gets nailed down, I am suing the out of that scumbag in Texas.

~* Jen *~

RE: P.S.‏
From: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])
Sent: Fri 4/04/08 12:56 AM
To: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])

Thank you. I found this online and found it interesting, that the reovirus is spread through fluids. The other snake I have that's sick shared a water bowl. Unlike this article, though, high dose baytril injections have not proved effective. The culture so far shows pseudomonas, sensitivity still pending. I will start amikacin for the pseudomonas unless culture says otherwise. I think I will try acyclovir orally with force watering. I have nothing to lose. I am encouraged, however, that the one snake is now approaching her 4th week. Antibody formation seems to take 6-8 weeks, so she may improve in another 2-3 weeks with support. I am interesting in talking with your vet, he was kind enough to call tonight but I missed his call, so hopefully I can hook up with him tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.

http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV17.htm




Dr. Jason Brodnik
Certified Level One Veterinary Laser Surgeon
International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management

P.O. Box 33293
Northglenn, CO 80233

303-903-6603

RE: P.S.‏
From: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])
Sent: Fri 4/04/08 6:08 AM
To: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])

It will most likely come back as Pseudomonas Aeruginosa, which is the secondary infection all of mine got after coming down with the virus. We tried double treatments with Ceftazidime (Tazicef) and Doxycycline together as a last resort, as those medications separately didn't help -- neither did Tylan, Baytril, Amikacin, oral Ciprofloxacin, or Fortaz. Together, they seemed to improve the symptoms, but the animals had to fight it on their own in the end. In all 12 snakes that I lost, each one took a different amount of time to die after first showing symtoms. Some lasted 24-48 hours, some lasted 10 days, some lasted 2 months before finally giving up. It reached everyone differently, which is why Dr. Gordon is so sure that the het clown from Wyatt was the carrier -- the female that got sick first had a weak immune system for whatever reason and was susceptible.

Have you noticed any mites anywhere on the snake you got from Wyatt or the snake that ended up ill with him? That is the big thing Dr. Gordon and I were looking at. I have never had a single mite in my collection in 4 years -- and when this virus popped up I started obsessively checking for them (my animals are kept on unprinted newspaper, so they should be easy to spot). I never found anything. Nothing fell off the dead bodies either when I removed them from the tubs. But yet when Dr. Gordon euthanized the two females for fresh samples, he said 3-4 mites fell off each one. I don't know how they appeared, but then I had to take that into consideration for mode of spread. BUT -- I don't see how one could have made it in 24 hours from the het clown who was secluded in a solitary rack across the room from my collection to the female that showed symptoms and died first, immediately effecting her in that time frame as well. That just doesn't seem feasible, especially considering that I didn't handle either of them and the room is closed, so no one else and no cats go in there. That's why we started looking at it as most likely airborne. They are all fed live rats, so no shared tools -- they all have separate water bowls that are disposable plastic cups and I toss them weekly and supply new ones -- I am a germaphobe (I work in health care) and wear latex gloves for any kind of action in the snake room, changing them between each and every snake/tub and sanitizing with hand sanitizer...I am just baffled by what happened.

According to that article, an EM test can be done to determine with certaintly what this is? How costly are they? Right now I have a giant bill already racked up with Dr. Jacobson that he understands will have to be paid over time, but money is not an object when it comes to nailing this crap down that has passed through people's collections with no one giving a single care in the world. Are the tests able to be done on living animals (I know the article mentioned that it was hard because of the tissues required)?

What about vertical transmission? I have 17 eggs in the incubator right now, which Dr. Gordon felt the babies should be just fine, but now with the new developments I'm not so sure.

What are the odds that my remaining animals (ball python and non-ball python) are now carriers and I have to euthanize them all or just quit this hobby?

~* Jen *~

RE: P.S.‏
From: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])
Sent: Fri 4/04/08 10:47 AM
To: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])

For the reovirus, apparently the eggs will be fine. When I receive new snakes, I soak them in warm water for 30 minutes to an hour, if they have any mites I would see them. It doesn't kill all of them, but some of them will dislodge and be more visible. No, I have never had any mites. I suspect yours were a secondary, opportunistic infection. I'll let you know the results of my culture and sensitivity. I will call your doctor today, thanks!


Dr. Jason Brodnik
Certified Level One Veterinary Laser Surgeon
International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management

P.O. Box 33293
Northglenn, CO 80233

303-903-6603

RE: P.S.‏
From: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 4/08/08 11:55 AM
To: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])

I haven't received the titer back yet, but the culture was P. Aeruginosa, and resistant to Baytril and Cefazolin which is what I was giving. Also resistant to Naxcel, Clavamox, Doxy, Orbifloxacin, Tetracycline, Trimethaprin and Claforan. I'll have to use a 3rd generation cephalosporin (Ceftazidine) and Amikacin. Was resistant to 10/13 antibiotics.


Dr. Jason Brodnik
Certified Level One Veterinary Laser Surgeon
International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management

P.O. Box 33293
Northglenn, CO 80233

303-903-6603

RE: P.S.‏
From: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 4/08/08 12:18 PM
To: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])

Same exact issue we had. Is it just the two snakes that are sick? How bad are they?

I saw that you hadn't posted any of this on the BOI yet -- would you mind if I posted our e-mail messages?

~* Jen *~

RE: P.S.‏
From: Dr. Jason Brodnik ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 4/08/08 2:05 PM
To: Jennifer Harrison ([email protected])

No, I don't mind at all.


Dr. Jason Brodnik
Certified Level One Veterinary Laser Surgeon
International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management

P.O. Box 33293
Northglenn, CO 80233

303-903-6603

So that is where things are at. I apologize for the instances where I had to omit swear words, but I'm sure most of you can understand how pissed off I am after all that has happened. Now with another person coming forward, and a vet of all things...it's like deja vu.