Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[EdwardK]

For those who want to question silly details of timing of vet visits, or whether it is wise to buy water snakes from a wholesaler, or whether they can dig up a scientific journal that calls into question an assumption made years ago, all I can ask is that you stop. Take a deep breath and try to refocus on the issue at hand. Your inability to focus on the issue at hand makes you look silly.

Given that you have not provided any proof to your claim that SFD has extirpated massasaugas in Illinois and the literature provided doesn't support your claim is where you come off as over-reacting and dismissive particularly when you call those kinds of questions as silly. You and how you present your claims are important to whether or not your claim is going to be considered credible and ad hominem attacks even relative mild ones are not going to get you anywhere.

Your attempt to dismiss the peer reviewed documentation as trivial is pretty specious since it calls into question just how long fungal blister type diseases have been present in the wild and pet trade. This may not be a "new" disease but simply an expansion of one that has been present for many decades and is only now becoming identified. As an additional point, if you are calling into question the older peer reviewed literature on nothing more than your personal opinion, you are again losing credibility and in that case the more recent information should be dismissed just as readily. You cannot choose to cherry pick what you think is important and what isn't in your argument.

Your opinions on these trivialities really aren't important right now.

Actually they are important, if you want people to respond positively and proactively then you should avoid insulting them and ignoring questions because you are bothered that people aren't running around like their heads are on fire on your word. Even if this is SFD, then it may still be husbandry related on your part, see the article I linked on water snakes above specifically this article

Lee, Y., et al. "Population monitoring and habitat characterization for the conservation and recovery of the northern population of the copperbelly water snake (Nerodia erythrogaster neglecta). Michigan Natural Features Inventory." Michigan Natural Features Inventory 2007-04 (2007).

where a disease fitting the same description was described in wild snakes and noted that the symptoms are common in captive species as well specifically from that article

We observed the snake again on 20 May and 8 June 2006 when it was captured and brought to the Detroit Zoo for diagnosis and treatment because we observed that the individual’s head and neck were
covered with blisters, and its left eye was filled with pus. The snake had been observed in the same wetland on a buttonbush brush pile. The Detroit Zoo staff has diagnosed this condition as blister disease which is
apparently fairly common among snakes in captivity when the snakes have been exposed to very humid conditions. It is a condition associated with snakes occurring in very humid or wet conditions. Snakes
often recover from blister disease after several sheds. For example, snakes may emerge from hibernation with blister disease but recover after a few sheds.
However, some snakes may have a hard time recovering from blister disease – e,g. if it continues to occur under conditions which caused the blister
disease originally.

I was hoping Underground would jump on here and engage - not about their side of the story - but (as I encouraged them to do) - acknowledge that this is potentially a big deal - not only for their own business, but for our wild herp populations, as well as our captive animals. And also talk about what they plan to do about it.

Your problem is that you aren't sure it is a big deal but you want it to be one, I'm not surprised a vendor doesn't want to engage given your leap off the cliff before you even have the test results back, if the test is negative for SFB and turns out to be a bacterial infection (ala the article I reposted above) what are you going to do about the negative attention you directed to a company and the hobby? Don't get me wrong, SFD is serious since we don't know the reason for it becoming so prevalent in the wild but as I noted above there are more than 50 years of descriptions in the literature for snakes with a similar symptom and we don't know if they are the same or not at this time. (I can't remember if it was blister disease or mouth rot Carl Kauffield in Snakes and Snake Hunting (1957) said there was no cure and to release the snake hoping it would cure itself or I would have used that as well as an example).

I'm a pretty rational guy. So those who want to throw the "hysterical" or "sky is falling" spear I'd ask you to reconsider - maybe double check your own motivation for your accusations. This may may a big deal, but more likely it is another step in what will eventually (and slowly) be a ban on interstate movement of native, and/or possibly exotic, herp species.

If it is SFD, why would it have to be slow? USFW could simply add the disease to the injurious list just like Bsal and ban the potential movement of the vector (the animal).

All we can do here is try to focus on the bigger issue - maybe including the role that large scale collectors, importers, wholesalers have on this emerging disease - and try not to get bogged down in the minutia.Joe

Its clear that the only thing you think is the big picture is what you are running around yelling about before you have even confirmed it. If you were that worried about it, you wouldn't have been self-treating the animals but would have sought veterinary assistance in the beginning. Did you consider that your naturalistic set-up could have made the issue worse as it enabled cross reinfection of a pathogen(s) as the animals were all back in contact with each other, exposed to greater humidity and potentially establishing the pathogen in the substrate, preventing the self clearance seen in C. horridus? Did you think to look at your husbandry technique to ensure that you would not be vectoring between cages to enable infection and reinfection? Not all disinfectants work on SFD ...

Don't attempt to denigrate the questions because they are inconvenient as your ability to present the case depends on your response.

some comments

Ed

 

[FresnoTortoise]

I was looking at those pictures and some of the blisters and eye infection could be caused by too humid environment without a place for the snake to dry out.

 

[Black Adder]

I was looking at those pictures and some of the blisters and eye infection could be caused by too humid environment without a place for the snake to dry out.

That is actually a very good point, a LOT of people are under the misconception that water snakes ACTUALLY spend the majority of their time submerged in water, when in reality it is quite the opposite.
My water snakes have a huge dish for bathing but have lots of very deep susbstrate and honestly they spend 90% of the time burrowing through the substrate rather than actually in the water.
Just my personal observation.....

 

[Mike Schultz]

I spoke with both Underground Reptile and Florida Fish and Wildlife today and USGS Wildlife Health. I have a call in to USFW which can issue rules governing the interstate trade of wildlife. This is an unfolding situation that may take weeks or months to play out.

Are you kidding me??? Having a small burden of proof for calling out a company on some hobbyist-run good guy/bad guy forum is one thing. But having that same shaky evidence and using it to call USFW and potentially cost us MORE rules regarding interstate trade? Because your shitty $10 wc water snake developed some blisters in your care, after being in captivity for weeks/months? How about no. Please and Thank you.

 

[CART]

Hello all - I bought new born water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. They have developed a disease that vets have speculated is Snake Fungal Disease (SFD).

I have spent $185 testing one of the snakes for the disease. If you're not familiar with it, SFD is a contagious, potentially lethal fungal disease that is killing wild snakes, as well as captives. It has no known cure.

I have had others tell me they bought snakes from Underground Reptiles that died with symptoms similar to SFD. While my snake is being tested I would like to see if any of you have, or know of someone who has had snakes from Underground develop skin lesions, scabby, crusty bumps, swollen eyes, disfigured areas in the nose / lip area.

If so, photos would be great, descriptions would be good to have as well.



Thanks -

Joe Monahan

Joe I am sorry but what did you expect underground reptiles is a wholesaler that's why their animals are so cheap they import them in the very same day they have them up for sale to export for sell to companies like snakes at sunset, big apple, or other retail stores who then turn around and sell the animals again

If you want a quality animal from somebody who actually captive born bred the animal then you're gonna have to pay higher dollar figure otherwise you can get an animal for cheap from people like that and it is a gamble regarding its health and whether or not it will survive there all about acquiring high-volume at low prices and selling it at a low price quickly in order to make a profit

 

[CART]

Sorry if this sounds rude but everybody who wants to buy a cheap animal goes to these wholesalers to get brand-new imports that are farmbred and maybe born in captivity but farmbred or wild caught and they sell high-volume at low prices they do not quarantine the animals they do not keep them for 60 or 90 days to make sure that they are healthy they do not give them vet treatments they might give them a dose of medicine for parasites but they turn around and they sell them fast for cheap prices and then people get upset because the animals unhealthy well I'm sorry what do you expect you're buying from a wholesaler importer for cheap you get what you pay for if you want a quality reptile then by from somebody who does not own a retail store retail stores do not breed all of their specimens most are acquired at wholesale cost and turned around and sold immediately

I sell my captive born and bred blue axanthic iguanas for $250 where these wholesalers are selling them for $125 maybe a little more maybe a little less you can tell the difference in quality between theirs and mine. My locality animals sell for $500-$3000 depending on the snake age and size where people like underground reptiles, big apple, snakes at sunset and these other retail stores will sell localities for anywhere from $100 to $300.

I get people emailing me or making comments about about how cheap they can get their animals from these type of sellers and how it's ridiculous that I want the price that I want and I'm sorry if you can't see the quality and the difference then absolutely go by your cheap animal but don't cry and get upset when the animal dies or when you find out it's sick what do you expect from that type of seller.

 

[Snakesatsunset]

Kevin South, you are misinformed and making assumptions.
Without hurting feelings, nor explaining why or why not, just want to let you know we HAVE NEVER bought an animal from Underground directly, now back to the water snake that was kept to wet.

 

[Snakesatsunset]

also since you called my shop out again, we get most of the $100-$300 LOCALITY animals from BREEDERS LIKE YOU.
So please do not lump us into the category of cheap, we don't care, etc about anything especially when you post an ad for a red iguana breeder male that you started a BOI thread about because it was missing a toe or something, yet don't disclose that in your ad.

Back to the water snake kept to wet. sorry for not sticking to topic, but have to defend my company and my stock when ill informed people try calling us out, when we get almost all OF OUR STOCK from breeders just like him.

 

[CART]

Kevin South, you are misinformed and making assumptions.
Without hurting feelings, nor explaining why or why not, just want to let you know we HAVE NEVER bought an animal from Underground directly, now back to the water snake that was kept to wet.

You may not buy from Underground. I never said that. I stated you import animals and turn around and sell them immediately just like underground. Dont deny it. I have personally contacted your company regarding animals in the past and directly asked and was told you got the animal in the other day. You posted a Suriname litter from a fresh imported WC female. It claimed it was the largest litter yo date approximately 70 babies.

I am simply stating when people buy animals for cheap there is a reason why they are cheap and you need to inheret the risks that come with that decision. When i contacted your company about the boa i was considering I had to weigh in my decision was i willing to take the risk associated with buying a fresh WC import for the price you were firm on and risk the animal having issues in the future because of that. I was not so i passed.

If i had decided to and something happened I would not be posting on BOI complaining and blaming the importer for the issues. You pay for what you get in life.

 

[CART]

also since you called my shop out again, we get most of the $100-$300 LOCALITY animals from BREEDERS LIKE YOU.
So please do not lump us into the category of cheap, we don't care, etc about anything especially when you post an ad for a red iguana breeder male that you started a BOI thread about because it was missing a toe or something, yet don't disclose that in your ad.

Back to the water snake kept to wet. sorry for not sticking to topic, but have to defend my company and my stock when ill informed people try calling us out, when we get almost all OF OUR STOCK from breeders just like him.

You dont get any of your animals from me. I dont wholesale my animals. I have disclosed that the male is missing a toe. I have provided full background story Micheal Barrera to any person who has inquired about him or any other reptile from me.

 

[thamnophis123]

I have never before posted in the BOI, though I've used it many times. I'm posting now because this thread caught my attention, and frankly, scared me to death. I also purchased a baby water snake from Underground Reptiles on September 20th, though mine was listed as a CB baby brown water snake.

A couple things Logan - First, congrats on your taste in snakes, Nerodia are some of the best you can keep, and that brown is a beauty!

Regarding Underground - The often misidentify the water snakes on their web site, interchanging the photos and descriptions. And since they sent you the wrong species, it makes me wonder if they even know the species they are dealing with, or if they just hope their customers don't

You are the 3rd person who has reported snakes bought from Underground suddenly dying with no outward sign of disease or trauma. If it happens again it would be worth it to have a necropsy done - ask your exotic animal vet if they have the resources to do it. (Don't make the mistake of freezing the snake like I did. Refrigerate only and get to vet or diagnostic lab ASAP)

Regarding captive bred vs wild caught - Places like Underground often pay "collectors" - sometimes also referred to as "winos" - for wild caught animals. If the snakes are pregnant they are tossed into cattle tanks and kept crowded together until their babies are born. So hundreds or even thousands of babies are "captive born" in a very disease rich environment.

I described this scenario to the manager at Underground and he didn't deny or correct it. So you can see where CB might actually be worse than wild caught when it comes to large scale dealers.

The skin lesions or pustules showing on your brown water snake do look like those on my greens. But visual comparison is only part of the diagnostic process. Unfortunately the fungus species in question (.) doesn't culture well, so your local vet won't be able to diagnose SFD accurately for you. (Its too slow growing and overwhelmed by bacteria when cultured. Even treated with antibiotics other types of fungi sometimes outgrow the SFD fungus) So they will probably have to talk to Dr Allender's lab at the U of Illinois. They can instruct on how to collect the samples, process and ship. Analysis there is done by a specific genetic test (qPCR) developed by Dr. Allender.

A note on husbandry ... You've obviously spent time putting together a great home for your taxispilota, which is great to see. Unfortunately plastic tubs just aren't good enclosures for snakes, especially active Colubrids like Nerodia. There is a whole host of problems with them, but lack of ventilation is going to be a big one for this snake.

Snake skin blisters or SFD isn't caused by keeping a snake in damp conditions. Its caused by a pathogen that seems to thrive in warm, moist conditions. The water feature you have is very cool, but is probably producing too much humidity - I think I see condensation? This might exacerbate whatever pathogen is producing the skin pustules. For water snakes I think an aquarium with a screen top might be best, though there are other good options. I buy 40 gallon breeder tanks at PetCo when they have their $1.00 per gallon sales.

Of course that brown will need something bigger eventually, but a 40 breeder would be OK for a couple years I bet.

I would encourage you to call Underground and describe what happened to the animals you bought from them, then let us know how they respond. I asked to speak with the manager which was not a problem.

 

[thamnophis123]

Are you kidding me??? Having a small burden of proof for calling out a company on some hobbyist-run good guy/bad guy forum is one thing. But having that same shaky evidence and using it to call USFW and potentially cost us MORE rules regarding interstate trade? Because your shitty $10 wc water snake developed some blisters in your care, after being in captivity for weeks/months? How about no. Please and Thank you.

Take a deep breath Mike. First of all, my water snakes cost $3.00, not $10.00. And they were not wild caught, nor are they "shitty". At least not anymore than any other Nerodia.

Seriously, if you stop hyperventilating and read, I'm not "calling out some company" and I'm not presenting "shaky evidence" to FWS or anyone else. I'm here trying to gather evidence that might help us better understand the threat of SFD to both wild and captive snakes, and to better understand the role places like Underground Reptiles play in that threat.

I understand there are some people who don't trust the government to make reasonable rules regarding wildlife ownership. I'm not one of them.

What I experienced with Underground, and the subsequent reading I did on the subject indicated to me that there *might* be a problem. All I'm trying to do is gather evidence that will help clarify the threat - if there is one.

All the agencies I've talked to have been very aware of the potential for this problem occurring. So believe me, any role I or the BOI plays will be insignificant. But if anything I do can help keep our native herp population safe from an emerging potentially lethal disease - even in a small way - I'll sure be glad to do it.

If I have to take some grief from people who put their own narrow, selfish interests ahead of the well-being of thousands or millions of wild herps, I guess I'm a big enough guy to handle that too.

 

[thamnophis123]

That is actually a very good point, a LOT of people are under the misconception that water snakes ACTUALLY spend the majority of their time submerged in water, when in reality it is quite the opposite.
My water snakes have a huge dish for bathing but have lots of very deep susbstrate and honestly they spend 90% of the time burrowing through the substrate rather than actually in the water.
Just my personal observation.....

Thats my experience too - not only of captive Nerodia but their behavior in the wild. Mine get in the water to hunt and to escape from me when I loom over their enclosure. The rest of the time is spent adjusting their distance from the heat and UV lights. They essentially live in very dry habitats that happen to be next to water.

 

[Black Adder]

Whoa guys we are getting SERIOUSLY off topic here!
Thread is about Underground and supposedly sick water snakes, remember.....

 

[Mike Schultz]

I understand there are some people who don't trust the government to make reasonable rules regarding wildlife ownership. I'm not one of them.

Considering I currently cannot legally ship a burmese python or a reticulated python from my home state of virginia, into the state of (example) Texas, even though they cannot survive in either one of these states. I cannot understand where this trust in reason is coming from.

When you play with garter snakes and water snakes as a hobby, I can see where it may not be a big deal to jeopardize this by calling undue attention on ourselves. But many of us do this for a living and would prefer not to have our livelihood constantly assaulted by the government for frivolous reasons.

 

[Logan256]

A couple things Logan - First, congrats on your taste in snakes, Nerodia are some of the best you can keep, and that brown is a beauty!

Regarding Underground - The often misidentify the water snakes on their web site, interchanging the photos and descriptions. And since they sent you the wrong species, it makes me wonder if they even know the species they are dealing with, or if they just hope their customers don't

You are the 3rd person who has reported snakes bought from Underground suddenly dying with no outward sign of disease or trauma. If it happens again it would be worth it to have a necropsy done - ask your exotic animal vet if they have the resources to do it. (Don't make the mistake of freezing the snake like I did. Refrigerate only and get to vet or diagnostic lab ASAP)

Regarding captive bred vs wild caught - Places like Underground often pay "collectors" - sometimes also referred to as "winos" - for wild caught animals. If the snakes are pregnant they are tossed into cattle tanks and kept crowded together until their babies are born. So hundreds or even thousands of babies are "captive born" in a very disease rich environment.

I described this scenario to the manager at Underground and he didn't deny or correct it. So you can see where CB might actually be worse than wild caught when it comes to large scale dealers.

The skin lesions or pustules showing on your brown water snake do look like those on my greens. But visual comparison is only part of the diagnostic process. Unfortunately the fungus species in question (.) doesn't culture well, so your local vet won't be able to diagnose SFD accurately for you. (Its too slow growing and overwhelmed by bacteria when cultured. Even treated with antibiotics other types of fungi sometimes outgrow the SFD fungus) So they will probably have to talk to Dr Allender's lab at the U of Illinois. They can instruct on how to collect the samples, process and ship. Analysis there is done by a specific genetic test (qPCR) developed by Dr. Allender.

A note on husbandry ... You've obviously spent time putting together a great home for your taxispilota, which is great to see. Unfortunately plastic tubs just aren't good enclosures for snakes, especially active Colubrids like Nerodia. There is a whole host of problems with them, but lack of ventilation is going to be a big one for this snake.

Snake skin blisters or SFD isn't caused by keeping a snake in damp conditions. Its caused by a pathogen that seems to thrive in warm, moist conditions. The water feature you have is very cool, but is probably producing too much humidity - I think I see condensation? This might exacerbate whatever pathogen is producing the skin pustules. For water snakes I think an aquarium with a screen top might be best, though there are other good options. I buy 40 gallon breeder tanks at PetCo when they have their $1.00 per gallon sales.

Of course that brown will need something bigger eventually, but a 40 breeder would be OK for a couple years I bet.

I would encourage you to call Underground and describe what happened to the animals you bought from them, then let us know how they respond. I asked to speak with the manager which was not a problem.

I'm definitely keeping a very close eye on all of the remaining snakes at this point, and if another one dies I will have a necropsy performed. It didn't occur to me with the first due to all of the potential issues with them being WC and stressed, but I also wasn't aware of this issue when it died. I will pass along the information about Dr. Allender to my vet next week as well.

Water snakes are relatively new for me - I've always wanted one, but was hesitant to buy WC so when I initially saw the CB brown baby, I jumped on it. The enclosure is a tub, yes, but its been modified to be 1/2 screened at the top, which unfortunately didn't show in the pictures. I've taken a few more this morning. The heat source is also an overhead basking lamp, to ensure humidity stays low. The plastic on the tub is well used and old, so that's the haziness you're seeing. The other three (now two) snakes I ordered because I fell in love with the baby brown water snake and wanted to possibly produce real CB water snakes in the future.

Maybe not my best plan, but they are so hard to find CBB.

My CB baby shed last night, and is showing fewer signs of blisters, though she does still have questionable areas behind her head. Otherwise, her behavior is normal. I'm just exceeding grateful to have a better idea of what's going on with her, as without this thread I may not have figured it out before it got worse or I caused myself another problem.

As for buying WC snakes - I agree. You get what you pay for. I bought those three as a hopeful gamble, and when the one passed, I had known the risks and wasn't looking for any form of restitution. I'm still not, nor am I assigning blame. I have other animals from Underground that are thriving.

When I saw this thread, I felt I had to contribute because I was mystified by the bumps my snake began showing and I wanted to make it known to other people that this may be a bigger issue than just the OP's green babies.

 

[thamnophis123]

Considering I currently cannot legally ship a burmese python or a reticulated python from my home state of virginia, into the state of (example) Texas, even though they cannot survive in either one of these states. I cannot understand where this trust in reason is coming from.

When you play with garter snakes and water snakes as a hobby, I can see where it may not be a big deal to jeopardize this by calling undue attention on ourselves. But many of us do this for a living and would prefer not to have our livelihood constantly assaulted by the government for frivolous reasons.

A couple things - I agree we are getting off topic, so I won't respond to off topic posts anymore (after this one

I found quite a lot of Indian pythons not far from Delhi, where street people routinely freeze to death and the temps regularly dip below freezing. I've also caught burmese in south Florida happily sunning themselves after a night of sub-freezing temps. So your assertion about where they can live is nothing but speculation in my opinion.

The fact that you squeak out a meager existence by peddling b-grade animals to unsuspecting 14 year olds doesn't mean you should be exempt from regulations designed to protect our collective wildlife resource, or our private collections. (See, both of us can play that off hand, denigrating comment game, can't we?)

Now, lets please get this thread back on topic: Underground Reptiles and SFD.

 

[Mike Schultz]

peddling b-grade animals to unsuspecting 14 year olds

Lol correct, the nerodia market in a nutshell.

 

[thamnophis123]

When I saw this thread, I felt I had to contribute because I was mystified by the bumps my snake began showing and I wanted to make it known to other people that this may be a bigger issue than just the OP's green babies.

Thank you, thats exactly what I hoped for. Please update with pics if your snakes' condition changes.

 

[Logan256]

Thank you, thats exactly what I hoped for. Please update with pics if your snakes' condition changes.

Will do. I'll be following this thread closely and will also report back after my snakes have been to the vet, or if any more die or develop symptoms.