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Why not to buy "Captive Bred" GTP's from LLL Reptile

Another method for getting stubborn feeders to eat is to was frozen thawed rodents. This trick is known by most colubrid breeders, and funny enough it works on other snakes as well. I recently have had success getting a stubborn baby chondro to eat with this method. Im not trying to shift the blame, just give a hint to others considering forceing a snake to eat.
 
For anyone interested

Check out this link onhttp://p072.ezboard.com/fchondroforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=5980.topic getting a Chondro to eat. Its pretty good!
 
Adam

Please dont misunderstand my post, I was just trying to add some "valuable input" to the discussion.

I hear you say you tried frozen thawed several times, but did you try a WASHED (WITH ECO SAFE DISH SOAP) FROZEN THAWED.

There is a BIG difference between the two. I have seen litterally 50 corns this season alone that would ONLY feed on WASHED frozen thawed rodents. Often they are the smaller ones of the litters, but other times they are normal looking animals.

A frozen rodent not only carries the odor of itself, but hundreds of other rodents that were mass packed with it at one point or another (most likely). Have you ever really smelt a frozen rodent? It smells like PISS, plain and simple. Some snakes are spooked by this odor, and need it washed away to intice eating.

Next time you have a fussy eater, give it a try. You would be AMAZED how well it works sometimes. Im not saying it would have worked here, but you never know.
 
I'll be damned Mickey, I never thought of that. I will definitely use that in the future thanks very much! I never thought you were being rude btw, just didn't know if you saw that I posted that earlier. I'm not mad at ya!:)
 
Adam

No problem at all. I actually can easily see your confusion. I just went back and re read my original post, and noticed I put " was frozen thawed" rather then WASHED FROZEN THAWED. Gotta hate lap tops, the keys are so close its easy to make mistakes.

Seriously though, it does seem to work wonders. Ive used it mostly with colubrids, but as I said it also worked with a gtp recently. I also had a buddy with about 25 cal kings that wouldnt eat readily earlier this season. I mentioned the washing trick to him, and that night something like 21 of them took their first meals. Most only need this done a few times, and then aggressively feed, others take more time. Hopefully this will help others in the future.
 
Man, I wish I'd have known about the washed F/T pinky trick. I lost 8 amel corn babies because they simply wouldn't eat. I tried pinky mice by braining, scenting with an anole, f/t, fresh killed and I also tried all the same ways listed above with newborn dwarf hamsters all to no avail.
Thanks everyone for a very informative thread. I'll surely be using this technique with the upcoming breeding season. Can't wait to do it in fact.
 
LLL chondros

Well, I'm a chondroholic and shop/browse at LLL on a fairly regular basis. At the shows I usually stop by and see what they have on their tables, Sometimes some real interesting animals, a mix of LOTS of animals.

There is a very local, breeder of several species that has had good success with his chondros that is "old school", nearly non-existent web presence, but with a reputation for producing some beautiful snakes. This breeder has sold many babies to LLL at import prices... LLL reps have also been open with me and told me that some of their snakes were imports and their source. They have chondros from both sources and weren't afraid to let me know which was which. I've never purchased a snake from them but at the last show, some of the cbb babies they did have there turned my eye.

I think there is a possibility that your snake was cbb, if they said it was cbb it probably was. I think they try to keep their business practices very above board and try to be helpful when they can. I think part of the problem is that they deal with so many animals that quarantine practices have got to be hit and miss at best. I may like some of the animals I see there, but can't ever picture myself purchasing one. So, I'm not saying they're "great" either, just like it is.

I'd say that if the baby was fat and healthy looking when you got it, and it basically looked ok when it died... just wouldn't eat.... there was something else up with it. You did have it a few months, too bad you didn't seek vet treatment early when you first started to get concerned, it may have been one of several treatable problems.

Whether or not it was cb or cbb...... by purchasing from a broker it's been exposed to countless other animals, any animal purchased should at the very least have a fecal test. They are very cost effective in general.

All I am wondering is if the snake was truly misrepresented? You said you found out later, found out how?
 
LLL was at the Pomona, CA IRBA show I went to in December. At least one some of their leos usually look sick, which is a bad sign. The first time I saw sick leos was when they had some of the Pro Exotics stock geckos (this was a year or two ago). Judging by Pro Exotics reputation, I doubt they were sick when LLL received them. I was also looking at their blue tongues at the last show. I wasn't looking long before I started to see mites crawling around their faces. With all the cups stacked together in close quarters, the parasitized wc / imports mixed in with the cbbs, I agree that there is ample chance for and evidence of disease transmission regardless of the animals origins.
-Alice Abela
 
i am sorry to hear about your loss, first of all. baby chondros are an especially delicate animal, and there are LOTS of ways to lose them. they have very little body fat and mass, so it does not take a lot to put them in dire straits. poor setup, poor temps, poor hydration, lack of visual cover (hidespots) there are MANY things that can go wrong, and they have a sharp and painful learning curve, that is the nature of that species, it is NOT a cornsnake.

as for LLL, they are one of the best AT WHAT THEY DO. they move a TON of animals, and at extremely competitive prices. but they are not a specialty breeder, like Greg Maxwell (chondro breeder). you do indeed get what you pay for, and for the money, LLL offers solid animals, but often the "polishing" of the animal is up to you. i don't think they could be any more straight forward about what they do, and they work extremely hard to please thousands of customers.

Ben Siegel is the same way, he moves a TON of animals, at a terrific price, but it is not fair to compare (or expect to compare) that price level of animal to Ralph Davis stock, or Greg Maxwell's stock, or another well reputed specialty breeder. Ralph, Greg, and others are WORLD CLASS BREEDERS, you are comparing apples and oranges expecting LLL to offer the same level of service and super custom hand-holding quality for a fraction of the price.

now, as to their chondro supply. i can tell you as FACT that they buy their chondros from the world's largest and most successful Chondro breeder. they are 100% captive bred and born, from captive adults.

are they imported? yes indeed : )

but being captive bred and being imported are not mutually exclusive. believe it or not, there are others outside the u.s. that captive breed reptiles, even in Indo.

the Bushmaster Farm in Indonesia is an EXTREMELY successful operation. they breed (at last count, could be higher now) close to 1000 captive bred, locality specific, chondros each year. absolutely stunning animals of stunning quality. their success is specifically responsible for the incredible drop in price and affordability not just for chondros, but for other species as well.

they breed (fully captive bred and born) nearly 3000(!!) Red Blood pythons each year, nearly 300 Yellow monitors (melinus) each year, and quite a few other species. take a look at the link below for some pics of their breeding facility, it is very clean, very well done, and incredibly productive.

when you see baby chondros on the classifieds, 90% of the time they are all Bushmaster stock, they really dominate the market in a number of species, simply due to their sheer numbers. silly to say "screw LLL, i should have went with this guy over here, his chondros are better" when they come from the exact same place : )

as great as these captive bred animals are, they can still share air space with imported reptiles, as Bushmaster is still an importer, and when you are bringing in 100's of baby chondros at a time, you simply cannot give each animal the same care and time that someone like Greg Maxwell gives to each and every one of his neonates.

and that is why they are so affordable. you really need to be realistic with your expectations, i think this bash against LLL is really uncalled for, you got an incredible price on a captive bred baby Chondro (a price UNHEARD of 2 or 3 years ago) but lost it due to unknown reasons. it ate once for you, which is a positive sign, but then went downhill in your care.

once again, the many many details of things that can go wrong with baby chondros are not even basically addressed in the post and info, i just know from experience how easy it is to lose a chondro neonate, and i don't see specific reason to bash LLL except to say "they are not captive bred and they ripped me off" but even that is incorrect as they ARE indeed captive bred animals, just as they were labeled and sold.

losing an animal is always tough, but you gotta get your facts straight before so quickly placing blame and gossiping untruths.

best of luck to you and your animals, including future Chondros, a great species to work with.

the Bushmaster Farm in pics
 
Thanks for the input.

And good Idea to add Bushmasters link. The sites pictures show that they are not some fly by night operation who import mostly wild caught, or offspring from wild caught gravid females as some would like you to think. Some people have a vested interest in casting a pall over large sellers and importers. Im no expert by any means, but I figured that Bushmaster and sometimes U.S. breeders are where they get their stock. You are right, you get what you pay for, but that doesn't mean you should be doomed to hell by the CBB industry for buying a Bushmaster Chondro for $300.oo Alot of CBB breeders own Bushmaster imports, and have started CBB projects with them.
 
Well said Robyn

I was going to bring up that very issue when I first posted, but didnt want to step on anyones toes. The first thing that popped into my head when I read "I'll buy Siegel instead of LLL next time" was that its likely the animals would be from the same source.
 
I said that I should have bought from Ben because getting great animals from him is the rule instead of the exception like LLL. Robyn, I have no beef with you or your company, however I do take things coming from PE with a grain of salt after the Pro-Products situation. Before you label me, I will say that if you want to point out my potential shortcomings, I will point out yours as well. I also spoke with you on Sunday morning at the Philly show in October and I treated you with nothing but respect, and if I see you again Iwill do the same. As far as my keeping of the baby, I kept him according to Greg Maxwells site on housing Neos, same enclosure, same setup. I have used the same system on baby ATB's in the past with no problems. Not saying I did everything right, just that I did my damnedest to.
 
Mickey_TLK said:
Well said Robyn

I was going to bring up that very issue when I first posted, but didnt want to step on anyones toes. The first thing that popped into my head when I read "I'll buy Siegel instead of LLL next time" was that its likely the animals would be from the same source.
Click to expand...

It often isn't the source.. But the middleman... Kam is a good guy with some great animals. But its the people who buy from him in lots that can be shadey and uneducated.
 
I havent dealt with LLL Reptile but have seen the epidemic of sick looking/misrepresented/poor quality animals at local shows. After my Sinaloan milksnake experience I dont think I would ever buy from one unless it was a reputable breeder there that I knew was a good guy. I bought the Sinaloan and was told that it was feeding well and healthy. I could tell the first time I tried to feed it a live pinky that it had never eaten before. It took weeks of trying, then an assist feed before it would eat. Then it took weeks of live before it would think about anything else. I finally got it to eat a frozen/thawed last night. Sorry to hear about your experience!

Jamie
 
My NUMEROUS experiences with LLL Reptile SUPPLY

LLL has a store very close to me, so I deal with them quite often. I really don't think they deserve to be bashed, either. I've seen their chondros in the store, and I'm no expert on chondros, but they look like healthy and pretty enough snakes to me. The same faces are there every time I go there (pretty much weekly), and they have most of what I need. Vermiculite? check. Hovabators? check. Aspen? check. heating elements? check. caging? check...you get the picture.

You need to remember something. The company is called LLL Reptile SUPPLY! They specialize in moving product, and the animals aren't their main gig. The quality of animals varies widely, and they have to move fast to compete for floor space with relatively fast-moving and low-maintenance hard goods. I wouldn't recommend buying from them over the internet, though I've never done it. I just wouldn't buy an animal from them without giving it a close inspection for anything to be worried about.

I bought a baby Colombian boa from them two years ago. I do not believe that they represented the animal as CB or CBB in any way, shape, or form. It died after two months...looked like could've been internal parasites, though my treatments seemed to have no effect. I DID NOT pay a premium price for the animal, and was disappointed, but didn't really blame them.

I'm more of a ball python guy anyways! And what I like about buying ball pythons from a SUPPLY specialist, rather than Ben Seigel for instance (for whom I have the highest regard and to whom I intend no ill-will...just in case this be taken the wrong way), is that they do not really pick through their bp's to sell some at a premium. Sure, they DEFINITELY require quarantining, and may be a little difficult to acclimate, but I've gotten what I consider to be some pretty good deals there. They don't charge a premium based on appearance, unless it's something obvious like an albino (though I've never seen them carry an albino ball).

Again, I have no problem with the way Ben does business. I consider it perfectly legitimate. I've never purchased from him, but I think he probably cares for his bp's better than LLL does, and he knows them better too. He recognizes the characteristics in bp's that the market is willing to pay a premium for, and he capitalizes. That's capitalism, and I respect it. LLL has lower prices (overall), bigger selection on animals and merchandise (at least I think they do), with probably a lower level of animal care and expertise. That's capitalism too, and you have to respect that.

Here are some of the bp's I've gotten from LLL (assuming I understand this picture thing...still not very good at this, and don't think I ever will be!). So, if pictures show up here, here are some of the bp's I've gotten from LLL Reptile SUPPLY
 

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Brian G. Engleman

Here's some more, for your troubles :)
 

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Was my thread titled "Why not to buy Ball Pythons from LLL Reptile"?? I didn't think so, if you don't mind can you tell me where I might find the point to your story?
Adam
 
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