Albino Ball Python Died!!

[Rusty Davis]

On may 30 2002 I bought 1.1 cb 00 het orange ghost ball pythons from NERD. The snakes arrived and were a little small, I weighed them and the male was 282 grams, the female was about ten grams heavier. The female died the first week of Aug. so I no longer have the feed card. I did not call kevin and let him know! I did not take her to a vet and do a necropsy!! I just figured that **** happens and wrote the whole thing off. I currently keep just shy of 100 ball pythons so I am not new to taking care of snakes and have done so for many years. My partner was talking to Adam about ball pythons and mentioned or loss. I was not going to post here but since I have been brought into this I felt that I should respond. I have enclosed a copy of the feed card and invoice of purchase. These animals were bought over the phone. When I asked for weight of the snakes before purchase I was told that they did not know and was given what was thought to be there length. On the feed card there is the weight on 6/5/02 of 282grams, also it shows my feedings from 5/31/02 but the card starts showing feedings of 10/7 01 and nothing before so I figure that there was a card before this one since we are missing a year. But there was one feeding on 10/07/01, 10/24/01, 11/16/01, 12/13/01, 1/03/02, 1/15/02, 1/21/02, 1/31/02, 2/11/02, 3/11/02, 3/22/02, 3/27/02, 4/10/02, 5/07/02, 5/19/02 these were the feeding on the card at purchase. Thats 15 feedings in 8 months. I have 41 feedings in 8 months. NERD has some the the coolest looking ball pythons no one can argue that. I do not know anything about genetic deffects and have not said otherwise. I did recieve ball pythons from NERD, they were not feed the way I would have feed them.


Rusty Davis

 

[Rusty Davis]

This should be the Invoice for 1.1 cb 00 het ghost ball pythons.

Rusty Davis

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

Shucks, ya all.

I'm still waitng for anyone to answer my simple question.

When it is no longer the responsibility of the breeder and when does it becomes the new owners responsibility?

Once the agreed upon guarantee has expired, another week, 2 weeks, month, 6 months after that period of time. Buyers have to start taking responsbility for the care of their animals eventualy.

Gout in Reptiles
Holly Frisby, DVM, MS
Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.


Gout is a common disease among reptiles, including snakes, iguanas, monitor lizards, and tortoises.

What causes gout?

Uric acid is one of the end breakdown products of dietary protein in certain animals, including terrestrial reptiles. The uric acid is removed from the blood by the kidneys and excreted in the urine. Gout can occur if the level of uric acid in the blood exceeds the ability of the kidneys to remove it. The uric acid may crystallize in the joints which is termed "articular gout". It may also be deposited in various organs ("visceral gout"), such as the liver, spleen, pericardial sac (the covering of the heart), kidneys, and lungs, and mucous membranes, such as the mouth. When the uric acid crystallizes in tissues it forms small, white nodules called "tophi."

There are two types of gout. In primary gout, the high uric acid level is a result of an abnormal breakdown of protein. Primary gout is thought to be hereditary in humans. In secondary gout, the high level is due to the inability of the kidneys to adequately excrete the uric acid. This can be caused by medications, chronic diseases, kidney disease, starvation, improper diet, decreased water intake or chronic dehydration, and other environmental factors which affect the kidneys' ability to eliminate uric acid. A common cause of gout is feeding animal proteins (e.g.; dog or cat food) to vegetarian reptiles, whose digestive systems cannot properly digest and metabolize animal-based protein. In these cases, large amounts of uric acid are produced and the kidneys cannot adequately eliminate them.

Based on this article, it opens up several questions that I as a seller would ask long before I would look at genetics as the cause. Especially if I have never had an accusation like my animals are genetically inferior because it died 2 months after the sale in several other peoples care.

And Adam, where did your vet find the crystals. Or is she just telling you she found a high level of uric acid in the blood stream? Hence, causing her to diagnose gout as the cause of death.

 

[HerpVenue]

When it is no longer the responsibility of the breeder and when does it becomes the new owners responsibility?

mine is on my terms page. Three days (minimum). I can extend it if I feel like it. In fact. I have extended it to a month to friends and people who were realy nice. ( I have this terrible weakness towards nice people) anyway...over a month is a waste of my time.

But on the other hand. If someone can prove that A majority of my snakes die within 2 months or so......then I can be responsible. If we can prove that it is genetics or something in my collection....then yeah I have to take responsibility. But if only two people out of hundreds and hundreds complain.....then I say the big F you. (luckily I have not had one yet)

 

[evansnakes]

You know Adam, after reading your last couple posts, the reason this is a 10+ page thread and not 1 page is due to how many conflicting and varying statements you have made. I was not going to take sides. Things die. That is life. Here are the reasons that you are in the wrong. As for you Kevin, you don't need to get so excited about this crap either. The statements made speak for themselves. I have no clue why you would be so insecure of your own collection and abilities. You are better than that. I don't side with anyone for any reason other than what I feel is right. Evan Stahl

1) I would not even have a conversation over warranty/guarantee of an animal with somebody that did not buy it from me in the first place.

2) No breeder on Earth gives more than 30 days guarantee on an animal!

3)No breeder on Earth would have a conversation with you on this topic when you waiting this long to address it. It was too late then, in my opinion, but why wouldn't you have called Kevin when it puked? When it died? Why wait all this time? It has been 6 months since your partner bought it!

4) You try to represent yourself as selfless, just posting to see if others had this problem, but then you attack everybody and make constant insinuations to the contrary.

This is a simple situation that comes up all the time in this business, so why is it that both of you, who have been in this business for some time and dealt with so many animals are so damn inept at dealing with this here and now? Adam, if you are going to be insulting and attack then do it. If you are going to be cool about it and just try to gather intell than do that. You CAN'T do both at the same time.

Evan Stahl

 

[franklinedwards60]

This is all I have to say

First Adam sorry for your loss.


But animals die all the time. Even high end this is the reason that everyone and thier breother are not breeding them.

Second if this aniaml died before Christmas, Why are you bring it up now?

If you chalked it up to a loss then why are you asking NERD to take some responsibilty?

Also Adam you are not the only person in the World that has lost a High end animal for an unknown reason. Sometimes it happens and then we just try to find out why. And try to make sure it doesn't happen again. 99.9% of the people that lose an animal 2+ months down the road don't go calling accusing everyone else. That is something a child does, not grown Adults.

Also you say your friend had the snake in the truck for 24 to 36 hours with no water. And sense you believe NERD didn't water thier animals. Then I would say you should not have bought the animal.

You say your friend has good knowledge of reptiles. If this is so then he should know what a newlly hatched ball looks like verses one that is a few months old.

I also have a question on the snakes feeding.

You said it lived for about 2 months in your care before it died?

8/02 My partner purchased an Albino ball python at the Daytona Show. This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention.

8/05 The animal was place in my care, was feeding fair and in good physical condition.
Over the next six weeks this snake fed five times with no troubles and seemed very healthy.

10/02 The animal was fed and two days later ended up regurgitating her meal between nine and eleven pm. Less then twelve hours later the animal was dead.

<b>So you recieved the aniaml on 8/5 and died on 10/2.</b>
So you had the animal for about 8 weeks.And i want ot make sure I have this right. <b>In 8 weeks you only fed this animal 6 times and when it puked it looked that way in the Picture? RIGHT?</b>


This is what I am not understanding. If it was eatting so well at first. Why do it look so small?

Thank you for your time in answer my questoins.

 

[Adam Block]

Blind eyes....

Very odd, Even says this looks like an animal know to have genetic troubles then he doesn't mention that again. We now have proof NERD feeds his high dollar snakes every 2-3 maybe 4 weeks. Something I feel is underfeeding and far from what's needed for a growing young snake.

Kevin won't respond to much of anything and nothing first hand. Everything is through somebody else. Seamus is trying to talk about NERD not supplying feed cards yet we now have one here.

Kevin says nothing in his terms about this. If he’d addressed it in his term it would be one thing. However, I’m not saying I need him to replace the snake as he told me from the start he wouldn’t. I’m trying to see if in fact there is more of a pattern then myself and Rusty. Also, now with these two animals it makes me think Will Slough may have been in the right. I don’t know but we have three adult breeders here saying things and Kevin saying we’re all wrong.

If you care to read that it’s at:

http://forum.kingsnake.com/ball/messages/51289.html

Either way, the questions I have will stay avoided, as the answers won’t add up.

Adam Block

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Ok I see the invoice is from NERD, but who is to say that the feed card is from Nerd? There is nothing on it refelecting this that I can see. So how is that proof unless Kevin states that is his feed chart and that he did send one.

 

[HerpVenue]

Also, now with these two animals it makes me think Will Slough may have been in the right.

All I read was someone was complaining about a "price drop" wow you proved your point. If I had spider balls.....I would set my prices at whatever price I deem necessary. And people can post away and complain about my "price drop" if they want.

One the trait is not recessive as far as I know.
Two he can set prices to whatever he wants.
Three people can cry about the prices all they want.
Four he had other animals selling at even higher prices....so to me he temporarily sold this one cheaper....he was having a sale? he needed money? who knows. ( I have sold "ugly" animals at way way lower prices than the rest of my collection.)


I have acquired animals that were being sold for 1250
and within months I saw the price drop to only 750
But I will not cry and post about it.
I will also CERTAINLY NOT link to someone else's crying about it.
Last year I saw albino boas being sold for 700 which is about half price (54% drop)......I did not see anyone complain. Actually I saw a couple breeders complain....but that was it.
So Kevin drops the price 30% and someone posts about it and you link to it to prove what again?

Your posts just shows a breeder complaining about his competition dropping prices........so what does your link prove again? maybe I just missed it.

Kevin won't respond to much of anything and nothing first hand. Everything is through somebody else.

Funny you mention it. Because that is exactly what your first POSTS were all about. an animal you did not buy yourself. In fact it took how many pages just to get the other buyer to post?

But I have to be fair.... so here goes.
If Kevin really sold an unhealthy snake.....then shame shame on him to high heaven.
Oh the other hand....as soon as the customer with the 282 gram 2 year old snake received the package, opened it, and saw an unhealthy snake.....why in the world did he not return it?

 

[HerpVenue]

Kevin says nothing in his terms about this. If he’d addressed it in his term it would be one thing

I better buy a snake from him now before he changes his terms page. That way whe it dies 10 years down the road I can complain. (little sarcasm....sorry)

In 8 weeks you only fed this animal 6 times and when it puked it looked that way in the Picture? RIGHT?

Actually I have had a couple stubborn feeders who have eaten less. But I made sure the owner knew everything.

 

[Ken Harbart]

Adam, the link to Will's forum outburst actually does nothing to support your case. What it does show is that Will Slough was upset that the price of hatchling spider balls dropped from one year to the next. Well, that's typically the way the market works. It's not often that a relatively new morph holds the same market value from one year to the next.

 

[HerpVenue]

Feed card-
I have to be fair and address teh issue of the feed card.

I do not know if the feed card is from nerd.

But I can at least tell that the hadwriting of the first set of numbers do differ from the second set of numbers.

sorry so many responces.....trying to play Devil's advocate and get to the truth no matter who "wins" or "loses"

Okay what about the statement on the genetic issue....
I did not know that a certain look on the albino consituted a much less desirable gene(weaker gene) Can you elaborate? I would certainly like to learn more. Is the faded albino gene a less "healthier" gene than the high contrast? or vice versa?

 

[Adam Block]

trying to play Devil's advocate and get to the truth no matter who "wins" or "loses"

It's easy to tell from all the questions you're asking Kevin to answer. Playing devil's advocate means looking at the side that others aren't. Why don't you stop assuming everything I've posted is wrong and address if in fact it is true and ask Kevin a few questions. You see a feed card from Kevin and you assume it's not from NERD? Why don't you address if in fact it is and Kevin does go a month without feeding his snakes! That's absurd!!!

Adam Block

 

[evansnakes]

Adam, my confusion came from a simple flaw in your argument. This board is about posting facts and you did not post the main fact that this board is for, the name of the dealer/breeder the animal came from. Now that I know who it came from I know that my comment does not apply to this animal. Simple. If you actually dealt in facts instead of crap I would not have even said that. How about you respond to the pile of valid points that I made instead of splitting hairs like a sleazy attorney. Evan Stahl

 

[CheriS]

I think Adam clarified that the 8/02 hatch and show was 8th month, 02 YEAR and then he got the snake 3 days later and confused year for day in the 8/05 post, meaning 3 days later he had it in hand. So thats like around 8/20/02-8/21/02 since the show was 8/17/02- 8/18/02.

No one still has answered: How old was this snake when taken 1200 miles, spent two days on display at a show and then taken 2000 miles????

This tiptoes around it but does not answer it

The clutch had hatched out prior to the show and had shed and began feeding, this period is typically at least 4 weeks before they understand what food is and begin to act like they understand what life is all about. All of the animals were feeding and fine when I brought them to the show, this fact is simple.

Can we have a hatch date?

Was this a two month old snake or a few days old? Only the breeder can answer that for sure and THAT is a factor to me, and probably was to the baby snake! The only reason I can see for avoiding answering it is IT WAS TOO YOUNG and SOMEONE knows that was not right!

Please, a hatch date and what age was the buyer told?

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Necropsy report

Adam,

I and others are still waiting to see the Necropsy report as well. Please post it so we can see the diagnosis ourselves.

 

[HerpVenue]

fine I will play.
Kevin...did it really take you a month to feed that snake?
Why?
Was there a reason?
Did you forget to just enter in a date?
Or do you just routinely not feed for a month?



Adam....tell me again why it was you posted Will's arguement about prices? What does it prove? Or is that a hint of you wanting to compain about other people's prices................AGAIN

8/02 My partner purchased an Albino ball python at the Daytona Show. This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention.

Okay...so who brought it to your attention? Did your partener or did Kevin?
Because if your partner brought it up.....then he knew the snake was just a few days old. Kevin in my opinion is wrong for selling a snake that is to young. Your friend is dumb for buying a snake that is to young then crying about it. Personally...before buying a baby snake...I like to ask when it was born.....how many times it has eaten....and how many times it has shed. I do not have the experience that you and your friend have as you stated. But I am usually smart enough to ask the necessary questions to make an inteligent purchase.

Kevin is wrong if he really sold an unhealthy het for ghost or whatever. But the guy is also dumb for not returning it. (just an opinion) If I do not like something....I return it.

Okay...in Kevin's defense. Maybe he has sold a ton of young snakes and only this one or two perished.

In the other people defense..........Maybe they knowingly bought a too young snake or knowingly accepted a too unhealthy snake because..................wait...I can't think of a defense

I would like to keep this free of insinuations, insults, threats and allegations. I’m doing nothing more then looking for facts and have done my best to state facts as opposed to what I think

I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one.

These were taken from the same paragraph. I see insinuations and allegations.....anyone else see it? And how did you come to find out the animal died of a genetic issue? Did you do a genetic study? I did not know they did DNA studies on gout

As for the trip, the snake was without water from the time of purchase to the time it got to AZ, remember my partner is a truck driver and did drive straight through (24-36 hours).

24 hours is a day...36 hours straight through is a day and a half. You did not recieve the snake until three days later. What did you guys do on the other day and a half?

You're all assuming things. My intentions, Kevins, other people and that is going no place. Kevin is here, I am here and there is no reason to assume either of our intentions.

So your intention is not to get a refund? What was that about a 65-35 split?
So your intention is to just gather facts? and not insinuate?
What was that about your reptile dying of genetics......also it has been four months and you have only gotten a hold of one other "breeder" who accepted an animal the he thought was unhealthy and failed to return said animal. It has been about six months since the your animal was purchased.............geez

Because of this I felt it odd that this breeder has had two well feeding snakes (As hardy as ball pythons) just up and die over the course of a couple of days without any warning.

Please tell me that was a typo and not you trying to be mr sheep dog feeding false information to us sheep.

 

[HerpVenue]

Forget the necropsy report.
What I want to see is the genetics report.
After all Adam claims his python died of a genetics issue

 

[Adam Block]

I've just gotten done looking at ten pages of posts. I have yet to see where I've said the snake died of a genetic issue? It died of gout, the cause of that is unknown unless you know something I don't.

At the show, there were roughly 60 snakes bought from:

B.H.B.
Pro Exotics
Dragon Herp
Peter Kahl
Rich Ihle
Ben Siegel
And a few others.

You won't find me saying nothing but GREAT THINGS about all of their animals. The purchase from NERD was small and if I were going to pick one to complain about for any other reason then there was truly an issue it wouldn't have been NERD.

Kevin is the only person with these rumors floating around and he is the only one who can but for whatever reason won't dismiss them. I think the reason is that he knows what will happen if he goes on record saying much of anything there is proof of that shows something else.

Either way, I don't care one way or the other. Kevin doesn't like the way this post is going and won't address the questions in here. It's enough for me and Kevin to know why and leave it at that for me.

With regard to Will Slough. It's my understanding when he bought the snake Kevin told him he would not drop the price. Many times the good breeder who set the market on a snake will let his customers recoup their money and let them set the price drops.

Much the reason Rainwater got so much crap for dropping the market from $10k to $5k on the albino geckos. Kevin’s reason for doing this when he told Will he wouldn't?

I have one problem, I need money, the price has to come down at some point.

My question is that if Kevin is motivated to do things based on money are you saying he isn't willing to sell a 2-week-old snake before it should be sold because he needs money?

Kevin said the snake was eating great and in good health. I don't see who based on Kevin’s words he can say the snake was eating great as it wasn't old enough to establish that.

Kevin will not give a date of birth on that clutch even though he keeps such good records. If you want to know why it's because he know it will make him look bad if he does and if he lies he knows I can prove it

Adam Block

 

[CheriS]

Adam, you did say that in your very first post, I did not understand it at the time and thought you either mistyped something or I also thought you were leaning toward it being a possbile genetic issue without knowing about the info on gout killing young snakes that are stressed and not hydrated or in proper temps.

I am not saying that was the case with this snake, its just common sense with the age and knowing what it is like to pack for and attend shows.