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Bad Guy Amanda & Mike Webb of The Pet Gecko

nidastothehades said:
A question I do have is that was the animal showing any signs of illness at the show? Were you already interested in the gecko before seeing it, via their FB or was this the first time you've seen the animal. I think it would be significantly worse if they brought a sick animal to the show.
Click to expand...

I had seen a photo of her in their FB album, and was intrigued by her color (dark for a patternless). The photo was removed some time after the sale, unfortunately well before I downloaded the program necessary to take my screenshots.

At the show itself, I realized Bella was younger than I'd assumed from her picture. I was told she was no more than 2 months old at most but that they didn't have the records with them at the show; they would have to get me the information later. Actually, I believe my request for that information is in the very first screenshot I posted.

In the few minutes I held her before buying, Bella appeared to be what she was advertised as: a very young and small, slightly stressed from the show but otherwise normal, patternless leopard gecko. I assumed (my mistake) that if something *did* come up after I got her home, it would be handled properly and professionally to the satisfaction of both parties.


And in the interests of full disclosure, I blocked both Amanda and Mike Webb on FB after last night's extremely insulting and potentially defamatory comments. (I am not, and have never been, a prostitute.) I have also attempted to be nothing but patient and professional in my dealings with the Webbs, and will continue to be so.

Any further contact will have to be through this thread, in a public forum where nothing will be deleted.
 
Angela, I know that you are out money and have suffered abuse trying to deal with these unprincipled morons, but they have been exposed for what they are. This is going to cost them a great deal more than it did you. Even though it was not my money but yours, I would say that they sold their reputation rather cheaply!
 
Mike I have seen you at many shows here in Colorado and even though I have never purchased from you. I have seen your animals and all look healthy.
However the last posting was uncalled for and in my opinion makes look more guilty. I say that bc of the defensive manner at which it was written. Maybe she is wrong maybe you are but the name calling and the way you have come off on this is totally wrong. At a minimum an apology is demanded for that. And if you can't do that then you may need to check you customer service skills as well as your human skills. This is not the first time I have heard this come out of someone's mouth but I for one gave you the benefit of the doubt to that as well as things that have been posted on Fauna from previous years.
 
jadonh said:
Mike I have seen you at many shows here in Colorado and even though I have never purchased from you. I have seen your animals and all look healthy.
However the last posting was uncalled for and in my opinion makes look more guilty. I say that bc of the defensive manner at which it was written. Maybe she is wrong maybe you are but the name calling and the way you have come off on this is totally wrong. At a minimum an apology is demanded for that. And if you can't do that then you may need to check you customer service skills as well as your human skills. This is not the first time I have heard this come out of someone's mouth but I for one gave you the benefit of the doubt to that as well as things that have been posted on Fauna from previous years.
Click to expand...

Mike's meltdown post, that was grievously uncalled for, was simply the final straw. Prior to that post, there was little to give any benefit of doubt.
The gecko was ill and had tested positive, for Crypto, by a very qualified, and respected, facility. Despite that, the sellers still wanted the OP to jump through several other needless hoops. Only to reject them since they were able to twist things, to their favor, due to unfortunate events (such as mother nature interfering with a timely necropsy), the vet finding no need to duplicate efforts (of another test for Crypto) since the initial test was done by a well qualified facility, etc.
Reptiles can carry Crypto and appear outwardly healthy/normal. When it becomes active, Crypto will, eventually, cause regurgitation (of meals), etc., while the animal can still appear outwardly normal. Then, eventually (with further progression), outward signs will appear via weight loss, lethargy, etc. Plus, in snakes, some will develop an abdominal lump or swelling.
Once again, though, even if Crypto was not present, the gecko was obviously ill, with signs appearing very quickly after purchase, and that alone is cause for a refund.1
 
The crypto parasite can be present in the gecko's GI system for several months without clinical signs. The stress of going to a show, being kept in a deli cup without heat, and then the stress of being re-housed after purchase is enough to send the gecko over the edge enough to compromise the immune system and get the parasite into takeover mode very quickly.
 
Great Documentation by OP, Amanda and Mike Webb, I Sincerely Hope You Make An Apology For The Unprofessional Behavior here and on FB and make it right by refunding cost that she requested
 
Wow, too many pages to even read. You know, yes this situation sucks
And I have had a few unhappy customers in the past and as cutthroat
As this industry is a line a mile long of people waiting to judge someone. But it
Is aggrivating given the sheer volume of business I do when one deal goes bad everybody
Assumes the worst. I get probably one unhappy customer a year. Out of 20-30 shows a year
And 150-200 shipments a year that in my opinion is a pretty good track record. But you just cant
Please everybody, and I am tired of trying to please everybody. I am also tired of having to "tip toe through the tulips", with everybody that just sits chomping at the bit to drag someones name through the mud. Thats why I for the most part got out of commercial breeding and just let Amanda do her gecko thing. And I do have to pubically apoligize to her for making this hard for her with my behavior. I am an asshole and she has had no part in what I have said on fauna. So forgive her, its me that is sick of
All the fake people and bullshit. I have been around long enough to see it all, and this whole
Industry is just full of two faced bullshit and I am just tired of it. I spend every hour of everyday it seems
Making sure my animals are top notch and amanda spends endless amounts of time just helping people with whatever gecko questions online even if they have never bought from us. But one shitty transaction especially with how it was not 100% confirmed on the results. Yes, the gecko she had obviously was sick, it appeared perfectly healthy when it was sold and none of our other animals are sick, we have had no other crypto reports, just 100 emails saying that their geckos are doing great, but
Should they be worried. So yes, I am sorry for reacting poorly, but this whole situation is just bullshit.
I am not perfect and I dont claim to be, but when everybody just wants to cut your throat as soon as they get a chance, well screw it. I try my best to be as helpful to people as I can and you just cant win em all. This deal went south, and it sucks, I am flat out moving on from this, I can only do soo much and If I cant please you, then im sorry. Its just crap what this whole industry has turned into and I am just tired of the bullshit. I am sure this has cost me a few friends and my wife many more, but If you are one of my "friends" that comments on shit like this before calling me and asking what is up, then you probably were not my friend to begin with. So if this adds fuel to your fires well then go ahead and post your comments, its not like it can get any worse, but pissing more people off isnt my intention here, but I am not going to start kissing ass either. My animals speak for themselves and I am not going to continue to waste my time here. Thank you to those who are standing by us in this, I did take it a little too far and for that I apololigize, but I am tired of the bullshit, it has taken all the fun out of being i the
Reptile industry and if you dont understand where I am coming from, well give it a few years
And you will finally see what an ugly beast this industry is under it glamourous skin.
This is my final post and comment on this, I have too much going on in my life to dwell on it and I will continue to supply my customers with the best quality animals I possibly can. Peace out everybody life is too short for all this shit.
 
No one needs to call and hear your side. All the reports were shown here. There is nothing to dispute and this isn't the only sick gecko sold recently from you. You started to sort of apologize yet take no blame for anything. I don't care how many good sales you have. It's how you handle the bad ones that show what type of person and breeder you are. You handled this poorly and you know it and won't man up. Angela has been nicer and more patient than most people would be. You got lucky that the gecko went to her and not someone else.
 
southernserpents28 said:
Wow, too many pages to even read. You know, yes this situation sucks
And I have had a few unhappy customers in the past and as cutthroat
As this industry is a line a mile long of people waiting to judge someone. But it
Is aggrivating given the sheer volume of business I do when one deal goes bad everybody
Assumes the worst. I get probably one unhappy customer a year. Out of 20-30 shows a year
And 150-200 shipments a year that in my opinion is a pretty good track record. But you just cant
Please everybody, and I am tired of trying to please everybody. I am also tired of having to "tip toe through the tulips", with everybody that just sits chomping at the bit to drag someones name through the mud. Thats why I for the most part got out of commercial breeding and just let Amanda do her gecko thing. And I do have to pubically apoligize to her for making this hard for her with my behavior. I am an asshole and she has had no part in what I have said on fauna. So forgive her, its me that is sick of
All the fake people and bullshit. I have been around long enough to see it all, and this whole
Industry is just full of two faced bullshit and I am just tired of it. I spend every hour of everyday it seems
Making sure my animals are top notch and amanda spends endless amounts of time just helping people with whatever gecko questions online even if they have never bought from us. But one shitty transaction especially with how it was not 100% confirmed on the results. Yes, the gecko she had obviously was sick, it appeared perfectly healthy when it was sold and none of our other animals are sick, we have had no other crypto reports, just 100 emails saying that their geckos are doing great, but
Should they be worried. So yes, I am sorry for reacting poorly, but this whole situation is just bullshit.
I am not perfect and I dont claim to be, but when everybody just wants to cut your throat as soon as they get a chance, well screw it. I try my best to be as helpful to people as I can and you just cant win em all. This deal went south, and it sucks, I am flat out moving on from this, I can only do soo much and If I cant please you, then im sorry. Its just crap what this whole industry has turned into and I am just tired of the bullshit. I am sure this has cost me a few friends and my wife many more, but If you are one of my "friends" that comments on shit like this before calling me and asking what is up, then you probably were not my friend to begin with. So if this adds fuel to your fires well then go ahead and post your comments, its not like it can get any worse, but pissing more people off isnt my intention here, but I am not going to start kissing ass either. My animals speak for themselves and I am not going to continue to waste my time here. Thank you to those who are standing by us in this, I did take it a little too far and for that I apololigize, but I am tired of the bullshit, it has taken all the fun out of being i the
Reptile industry and if you dont understand where I am coming from, well give it a few years
And you will finally see what an ugly beast this industry is under it glamourous skin.
This is my final post and comment on this, I have too much going on in my life to dwell on it and I will continue to supply my customers with the best quality animals I possibly can. Peace out everybody life is too short for all this shit.
Click to expand...

A little too far Mike? Do you remember what you said to her just yesterday?

Im well aware of how aweful the hobby can be. Ive seen it for a long, long time. But at no point have I even considered talking like that to someone. And at no point have I even considered handling the situation in general the way you have. You make things right. Even if theres a small chance (which I dont think) that you may be cleared of it. And you sure as hell dont degrade someone's character, whos being UNBELIEVABLY professional considering, with the name calling etc.

People show who they really are when theyre backed into a corner. And you've clearly shone yourself.

Thats not to say that its all doom and gloom and your just the anti-christ. Because Im sure your not. But good people do good things. Good people step out and do something that the next guy wouldnt do. Even if theyve done wrong in the past, because your right, no ones perfect. But good people fix things when theyve obviously made a mistake. Even if its just in private where no one would know about it.
 
Kristi23 said:
No one needs to call and hear your side. All the reports were shown here. There is nothing to dispute and this isn't the only sick gecko sold recently from you. You started to sort of apologize yet take no blame for anything. I don't care how many good sales you have. It's how you handle the bad ones that show what type of person and breeder you are. You handled this poorly and you know it and won't man up. Angela has been nicer and more patient than most people would be. You got lucky that the gecko went to her and not someone else.
Click to expand...

Confirmation of Bad Guy Meltdown Classic Step #3: Use excessive vulgarity in long drawn out post that repeats itself over and over again in order to be banned and no longer able to respond to the thread, therefore, making it no longer relevant in their mind.

10-4 on that.

FYI Mike, no one cares about how many good transactions you have when you completely botch the self-proclaimed singular bad one in an entire year.

People are not defined by perfection, they are defined by how they deal with imperfection.

Keep doing what you're doing though. It's working for you pretty well.
 
Wow, as if the positive crypto wasn't enough of a reason to stay away.....somebody who talks to polite women in that fashion is......well, I cannot say without getting an infraction. So I'll let you all use your imaginations.
 
southernserpents28 said:
especially with how it was not 100% confirmed on the results.
Click to expand...

You are implying by your statement here that a positive result from a lab test performed by Avian Biotech would need confirmation in order to be valid. I have sent them a query with a link to this thread.
 
Your denial simply amazes me. The leo showed active symptoms 2-3 days after purchase. That means it had crypto when she bought it. I believe you guys did not know this. Selling an animal with crypto is not your guys fault. We all know leos can have re homing stress that can cause weird symptoms and that's what it was thought to be at first and you guys were on track with good customer service at that point. You act like she was negligent for not going to a vet sooner but she knew more than you apparently and was waiting for results on a more accurate test for crypto to come in first instead since the symptoms were highly indicating crypto and not just run of mill parasites. As soon as that positive result came back your customer service went out the window looking for a way to give you an out. Shame on you guys. And now you act like Amanda has no fault in all this but her comments on Facebook aren't much better than yours here. I'm sure its on purpose that she is not commenting here where the record is permanent so she can just blame you. It won't work, you're two peas in a pod and everyone knows that now. The fact is if you produced this animal from your stock (which you led her to believe you did) then it's very likely you have other crypto positive animals. If you bought this animal wholesale to sell then maybe your collection is clean. For everyone's sake I hope that's the case.


Heather Johnson with KC Geckos
 
From the screenshot on post #5, The Pet Gecko:

"I have also tested all of my geckos as a precaution after the runny poop and regurgitating was brought to my attention. All have come back clean from the vet here."


southernserpents28 said:
I did not say all 400 geckos were tested
Click to expand...

One of those has to be a lie.



southernserpents28 said:
vet that I do not work at
Click to expand...

You work for a vet? If any reader knows what vet Webb works for please contact me, I'd send him/her a link to this thread in a heartbeat.

southernserpents28 said:
Industry is just full of two faced bullshit and I am just tired of it.
Click to expand...

The 'po little me' defense isn't going to work here. If you are tired of the biz, get out of it. Take a vacation.
That you seem to hate what you are doing is no reason for you to treat the OP the way you have. She has been nothing but polite and reasonable and concerned about her critter she bought from you, may it rest in peace, and in my opinion you deserve to have Hell rained down on you for the manner in which you responded to her on post 40.
 
laterob said:
"Angela, I'm really sorry" would have been much easier to type, Mike.
Click to expand...

it would have also helped their business a lot more. That long sad apology full of justification is upsetting. I really hope Im not in the business for 15 -20 years and end up ignoring a customer over $60 gecko, risk my collection with a sickness that could cause suffering to my guys, and subsequently ruin my reputation by reacting in the most appalling way yet. and that's the short version of way i see it

I would not stop purchasing from someone with a health scare in their facility forever but I will go far out of my way to avoid the Webbs for the way they handled this. First Mikes sickening display of immaturity. I have seen 15 year old, brand new hobbyists treat an unhappy customer with more class than him. unreal.
Second their dishonesty when it comes to the testing of their animals and health. Nobody on Earth would want to bring home a new pet and watch it die. Seriously how dare these people risk everyone's collection and carelessly spread a disease which we should all be working to eradicate then post that they will continue to provide the best quality animals I they can. That should be at minimum a healthy pet. If they don't have the $$ to refund a customer $200 ( or whatever the cost of the vet and testing and the price of Bella was), how do they have the funding to support 400 geckos? I highly doubt they used the funds they have to treat and care for the Leos...

I'm sorry to the OP for the outburst of a horrible seller. I have never been verbally attacked professionally and could never imagine doing business with anyone like that.
 
I have not posted in some time. I have been in this "industry" or "hobby" For a long time. It is not cut throat as it has been said. Some put lines in the sand but not everyone. There are many many great people.

Angela did everything right. She posted all the info. tested the animal twice and tried a third. She tried very hard to work it out with the breeder. IMO she helped the breeder by bringing it to their attention. Do they have to test all animals at once? No, but they should start testing at random atleast.

What I seen in this thread is lies by the breeder. Once they say they test all their stuff monthly then turn around and say they don't. Once they say they do not PCR test then they say they do. Back and forth they go. This shows who they are. Say whatever it takes to get out of it.

here is how I would have handled the situation.

1) Talked to the customer ask for the proof that the animal had tested positive. Asked them to be sure they had it away from their collection. I tell everyone to Q even my animals. Just good practice.

2) Once I had the proof I would have refunded their money and paid for the testing.

3) Would have told them I would have replaced the animal but I had to be sure my collection is clean before any animals leave my collection again. It would be on lockdown.

See I have a large collection and in no way can I test every animal in it. Now if I ever had an animal show signs of it they are tested right away. Quarantine is a must...90 days.

I will say this also. Angela has a gecko coming from me. She had this situation going on when it happened. She asked me if I can just hold it here and I told her what ever is needed. Not once did she tell me who as she was trying to handle it and do it with respect and kindness. She did that very well if you ask me. She then said she would be testing the animal coming from me and putting the animal in quarantine and she hoped I did not take that wrong. I told her that I respect her more for doing it. I stand by her doing that.

It does not take a saint to be a breeder just being respectful goes a long way.

This is a bad situation and I seen Mike say that do not hate Amanda. There is no hate here. But Amanda should then have been here posting. You both handled this and IMO handled it wrong. Angela was not asking for the world. She did not ask for anything she did not deserve. But she was demanded to do things that were not needed.

Coming from a person that is sitting outside the box watching. I will not throw stones. But I will be damned if I let stones hit a person that do not deserve it. Angela does not deserve the way she is being treated. All she did was trust the breeder and buy an animal. Then try everything to care for a sick animal.

Im out
 
Thank you, Gary O. I very much appreciate your patience, and that of a few other breeders who are holding animals for me, while I ensure the safety of the rest of my collection.


I had intended to step away for a while, as the Webbs seem to have done the rest of my job for me, and because this whole situation is more stress than any person deserves to deal with. But...I felt I should clarify a few things.

I did not personally have Avian Biotech run the sample twice. When I spoke with Arne at ABT, he told me that they ran a second test when the first came up positive. That second test came up positive as well. He also told me the species of Crypto present (which is determined by the length of the replicated DNA sequence, as I understand it, but this particular part of the test process is a bit beyond my scientific knowledge base). The exact species was determined to be C. saurophilum.

I did not ask for a refund of the price of the PCR test, and I never expected one. Those tests were done to protect my already-existing collection, and positive or negative, the costs should fall on me. I did want a refund of the original purchase price and the price of the exam/testing/necropsy the Webbs required to "prove" the positive PCR result. I felt that was more than reasonable, considering the situation.

I am extremely disappointed by the fact that Mike Webb was able to apologize to his wife, and to his friends who've stood by him, for making this hard and "taking it a bit too far", but he could not bring himself to apologize to me, the injured party, for using such unprofessional and insulting language. And to say such things in what amounts to a public setting in the first place, a PERMANENT public setting... there just aren't any words. Even a full refund of every related expense, a public apology, and a million free animals could not make this situation right at this point.


One final comment: It appears that this incident and links to this thread have been taken to Repticon by multiple people, thorough multiple different channels. I will be leaving it in their capable hands, and hoping that at least some small good can come of this.
 
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