Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[AF Exotics]

See, I knew I screwed his name up.It's Rombough Herpetological,in Oregon.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Any chance anyone has looked at the exif data of the photographs that have been posted to check them against the timelines that have been presented?

It was suggested on page three that the deceased frog wasn't the frog that Ed sent. The reasons given were largely to do with the color (which doesn't mean a lot with these frogs, since they change color for a few reasons while alive and tend to pale out pretty quick post mortem) and weight (which the change in angles doesn't prove exists, as the photos of the deceased frog do not show the same posture and physical parts as the photos of the live frog)... If the exif data complies with the timeline, it doesn't prove anything, but makes it probable that it's the same frog, no scam involved. If the exif data has the photo of the deceased frog being taken prior to Ed's frog being shipped or more than a day or two after the claim was made that it had died though...

 

[crazyfroglady]

Any chance anyone has looked at the exif data of the photographs that have been posted to check them against the timelines that have been presented?

It was suggested on page three that the deceased frog wasn't the frog that Ed sent. The reasons given were largely to do with the color (which doesn't mean a lot with these frogs, since they change color for a few reasons while alive and tend to pale out pretty quick post mortem) and weight (which the change in angles doesn't prove exists, as the photos of the deceased frog do not show the same posture and physical parts as the photos of the live frog)... If the exif data complies with the timeline, it doesn't prove anything, but makes it probable that it's the same frog, no scam involved. If the exif data has the photo of the deceased frog being taken prior to Ed's frog being shipped or more than a day or two after the claim was made that it had died though...

Nice to see you making a point for Kelly. I was starting to think you were ED only using a dictionary.

Does your head ever feel like it's going to explode?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Any chance anyone has looked at the exif data of the photographs that have been posted to check them against the timelines that have been presented?

It was suggested on page three that the deceased frog wasn't the frog that Ed sent. The reasons given were largely to do with the color (which doesn't mean a lot with these frogs, since they change color for a few reasons while alive and tend to pale out pretty quick post mortem) and weight (which the change in angles doesn't prove exists, as the photos of the deceased frog do not show the same posture and physical parts as the photos of the live frog)... If the exif data complies with the timeline, it doesn't prove anything, but makes it probable that it's the same frog, no scam involved. If the exif data has the photo of the deceased frog being taken prior to Ed's frog being shipped or more than a day or two after the claim was made that it had died though...

Deceased frog second photograph first post. 2008:08:14 09:42:12

 

[Seamus Haley]

Nice to see you making a point for Kelly. I was starting to think you were ED only using a dictionary.

Does your head ever feel like it's going to explode?

I don't make points for people. I make points because they're factual or, at times because they support my own opinions.

If I were to make points for people, they would not be made for Ed Clark, he is not a friend of mine. Even though he and I have a relationship that can be described as "antagonistic at best and exclusive to this website" I'll still continue to make points based on facts, even if they end up being supportive of a position he's holding.

No. My head feels fine. Maybe you need a bigger voodoo doll.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Deceased frog second photograph first post. 2008:08:14 09:42:12

Perfectly in line with the timeline Kelly posted then. Given the rapid decomposition or dehydration of deceased frogs, it's extremely unlikely that it's any frog other than the one Ed shipped.

Thanks Dennis, my refusal to use firefox makes me look to others for that information.

 

[crazyfroglady]

I say we all save any further speculation till after the chytrid testing is done and the results are posted. Then we will have enough information to make factual statements.

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

How about this for a suggestion and this has happened to me at least twice.

The girl bought a whites tree frog for 80.00 WHAT??
called it an austrailian but it looks just like the indonesians that everyone gets wildcaught.

She more than likely went to a show or found some cheaper and when it died decided to recover some overspent money.

I am not saying that is what happened but merely suggesting another scenario. Otherwise why all the expense for proving Ed wrong for a 15.00 frog that she paid 80.00 for and now has upwards of 300.00 into and no frog.

If the frog was indeed that sick when Ed sent it it surely would have died if not in transit surely the same day. and the length of the two frogs in the photos look totally different although it could be something to with angles of the photo. I am not an expert by any means with photography.
Also girl stated she put the frog in the vivarium as soon as she got it but yet the second photo shows a flat tank with papertowels not a planted vivarium.
Just a thought.
Jewell

 

[David Scarboro]

How about this for a suggestion and this has happened to me at least twice.

The girl bought a whites tree frog for 80.00 WHAT??
called it an austrailian but it looks just like the indonesians that everyone gets wildcaught.

She more than likely went to a show or found some cheaper and when it died decided to recover some overspent money.

I am not saying that is what happened but merely suggesting another scenario. Otherwise why all the expense for proving Ed wrong for a 15.00 frog that she paid 80.00 for and now has upwards of 300.00 into and no frog.

If the frog was indeed that sick when Ed sent it it surely would have died if not in transit surely the same day. and the length of the two frogs in the photos look totally different although it could be something to with angles of the photo. I am not an expert by any means with photography.
Also girl stated she put the frog in the vivarium as soon as she got it but yet the second photo shows a flat tank with papertowels not a planted vivarium.
Just a thought.
Jewell

Possible, but how about this suggestion...

Maybe Ed sent a defective animal, or even a parasite ridden wild caught animal for captive born (he has done this before). Maybe he is trying to weasel out of any blame by answering some questions, ducking others, quoting unnamed sources, and finally, clamming up and refusing to respond at all when finally caught. (he has done this more than twice) I am not an expert on photography or frogs, but the pics look like the same frog to me.
Just a thought.

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

That is definitely a possibility as I said the frog looks just like any indo whites that come in by the 1000s which would be why he occasionally gets 100s at a time.

As to the photo like I said it could be the angle of the shot that makes it look like two different frogs.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Perfectly in line with the timeline Kelly posted then. Given the rapid decomposition or dehydration of deceased frogs, it's extremely unlikely that it's any frog other than the one Ed shipped.

Thanks Dennis, my refusal to use firefox makes me look to others for that information.

You could just download an Exif reader

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

Thanks and to prove my inexperience with photos what is an exif reader and how do i find it? (besides the obvious search engine)

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Thanks and to prove my inexperience with photos what is an exif reader and how do i find it? (besides the obvious search engine)

It gives you data about the photo, IE: what camera took the photo, what mode it was in, flash or no flash, the date, and also if the photo was edited and how and with what program.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I say we all save any further speculation till after the chytrid testing is done and the results are posted. Then we will have enough information to make factual statements.

A copy of the actual necropsy still hasn't been posted (though the OP was asked for it a few times), so as far as I'm concerned, the medical information posted by the OP isn't factual until proof is provided that it was actually done and what the vet actually said.

 

[jayefbe]

I say we all save any further speculation till after the chytrid testing is done and the results are posted. Then we will have enough information to make factual statements.

I don't think anybody is picking sides here (actually, I think a lot of people are siding with K412). Do I trust Ed? Not at all. Would I ever order anything from him? Never in a million years. Do I think he's to blame in this scenario? Probably not. I personally have noticed inconsistencies in K412's story, which I felt needed to be pointed out. Seamus, who is obviously very knowledgeable, has his own opinions based purely on the few facts that we have. His posts are extremely convincing, and best of all, are not colored by personal perceptions of other people.

Also, why is the chytrid test taking so long? I always thought it was a fairly quick and easy diagnosis for anyone with some experience with amphibians. If it was infected with chytrid, why wasn't it mentioned in the necropsy?

 

[LauraB]

Exactly Stephanie.

I seem to recall a couple of posts at the fatfrogs forum where Kelly stated "The report states that it was a female" and where she posted first that the necropsy was unremarkable and that no cause of death was determined, then later posted the text of the necropsy report.

Perhaps I've missed it in my multiple reviews of the necropsy text she's posted, but nowhere do I see any mention of female. I do think a CLEAR photo of the ENTIRE report is necessary.

So far, I glean Kelly first believed she contributed to the frog's death, even though now adamant that she did everything correctly (which I suppose would include trying to feed, despite the animal actually turning away from the offered food, and then with tongs no less, a newly shipped animal; moving a newly shipped, totally unacclimated, disoriented animal from the safe bottom to an exposed ledge under a bright heat source because it felt "cold to the touch" and taking photos).
In the later odd email to Ed (before the frog died) she asks if a tree frog can fall because she put it on the ledge, left the room, and came back later to find the frog on the rock pile. She expressed concern about the frog injuring itself. She gave an explanation to someone for that particular question to Ed, I also just found it odd and a bit peculiar.
Later, when someone says "hmm, looks like CF", a necropsy is performed and the outwardly very healthy looking frog is full of deadly microbes.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Hepatitis is a virus, CF is a fugus, and cause of death was determined as bacterial septicemia introduced thru skin lesions and abrassions, correct?

I'm just rambling at this point ... at any rate, the necropsy needs to be scanned/photo'd and posted.
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And Seamus; excellent posts, excellent valid points

 

[deborahbroadus]

You have all made very valid points. Thanks Seamus for the quick overview.

Most of us are not experts. I do not pretend to be other than what I am...a person with NO experience and I am researching and learning (that frog was SOOO cute!) I found this resource (below link) and decided to quote it. However, nearly all my research comes up with caresheets that say that the frog is "hardy" and a good frog for beginners (this is seemingly contrary to the idea of this particular frog dying within 24 hours in the care of a novice.

http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/species/whites.html

It requires a really big and tall terrarium (recommended size is 25 gallon!!) with a lot of plants and hollow branches. There are two choices in tanks for the White's Tree Frog; the arboreal tank, or the terrestrial tank. The arboreal tank is the best choice because tree frogs spend most of their time high in the branches in their tank.

The reference could be wrong, in fact all the references that I found could be outdated, but I still continue to doubt that a frog could die in 24 hours from being handled a couple of times and having his/her picture taken even if she did wave some tongs in its face. Lack of concrete information on both sides is an issue.

I also looked at the pictures (there's one on the bottom of the above link) of healthy frogs and I don't see those abraisions, or the bloodshot eyes.

(here's another link with a pic)http://userpages.bright.net/~a1rep/a1whitecare.html

 

[deborahbroadus]

Exactly Stephanie.

I seem to recall a couple of posts at the fatfrogs forum where Kelly stated "The report states that it was a female" and where she posted first that the necropsy was unremarkable and that no cause of death was determined, then later posted the text of the necropsy report.

Perhaps I've missed it in my multiple reviews of the necropsy text she's posted, but nowhere do I see any mention of female. I do think a CLEAR photo of the ENTIRE report is necessary.

So far, I glean Kelly first believed she contributed to the frog's death, even though now adamant that she did everything correctly (which I suppose would include trying to feed, despite the animal actually turning away from the offered food, and then with tongs no less, a newly shipped animal; moving a newly shipped, totally unacclimated, disoriented animal from the safe bottom to an exposed ledge under a bright heat source because it felt "cold to the touch" and taking photos).
In the later odd email to Ed (before the frog died) she asks if a tree frog can fall because she put it on the ledge, left the room, and came back later to find the frog on the rock pile. She expressed concern about the frog injuring itself. She gave an explanation to someone for that particular question to Ed, I also just found it odd and a bit peculiar.
Later, when someone says "hmm, looks like CF", a necropsy is performed and the outwardly very healthy looking frog is full of deadly microbes.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Hepatitis is a virus, CF is a fugus, and cause of death was determined as bacterial septicemia introduced thru skin lesions and abrassions, correct?

I'm just rambling at this point ... at any rate, the necropsy needs to be scanned/photo'd and posted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Seamus; excellent posts, excellent valid points

In an earlier post where the report is typed in :

The cause of death in this frog is due to bacterial septicemia. This is most likely the cause of the clinical signs. It is difficult to determine where the portal of entry might be for the bacteria, I suspect it is through lesions in the skin. There are areas of the skin with ulcerations and erosions and large numbers of bacteria present as well as large numbers of the bacteria being present within lymphatics in the dermis. No other specific disease agent is recognized.

Perhaps the doctor or someone more knowledgable can chime in on this finding.

But you are right:

the necropsy needs to be scanned/photo'd and posted.

 

[LauraB]

My only point was she took a freshly shipped and likely stressed animal, placed it in a brand new, nicely lit environment, attempted to feed it more than once even after it expressed no interest, frightened it with the tongs, took photos, even placing it on a ledge under a nice warm bright light and then later expressed concern that it might have fallen to the rock pile below. I just don't see that as a responsible introduction and acclimation by a person who keeps herps and has done plenty of research.
Again, I may be wrong but I don't believe White's are necessarily legendary for their jumping ability. They do like to climb upwards, but I don't believe they jump unless they feel threatened or startled. (again, someone correct me if I am wrong).
I also believe they aren't terribly active, which Kelly should also have known (she stated the frog was "lethargic") or at least expected from a new animal.

Yes, I read the necropsy text numerous times and did note the cause of death as "bacterial septicemia". As for the "clinical signs" ... what clinical signs? I need an interpreter, I suppose.

I also am curious about her treating her other frogs for CF. I don't know a lot about the fungus, but I do know it's responsible for wiping out huge numbers of frogs and toads worldwide; in the wild, in zoos, in the hands of breeders and hobbyists alike. I know CF infects the epidermal cells, which is why the skin is the only organ required for diagnosis. I know it's possible animals can carry CF without exhibiting symptoms; I know stress is a catalyst; an exacerbator of the disease which can trigger sudden death. I know there are treatments for CF (Benzalkonium chloride baths, Itraconazole, Chloramphenicol baths)
Kelly, did you treat your other frogs just as a preventative? Presumably before you received the White's, correct? Did you treat them or did a vet? What were they treated with? How long ago?
I would also like the same question answered by Ed, if he has treated his frogs (as he should have!)

I also agree, Deborah, that a lack of info on both sides is an issue. However, I honestly don't see what I would construe as a frog 24-hours from death in Kelly's photos due to massive microbe invasion; that's why this is so curious.

I also looked at the pictures (there's one on the bottom of the above link) of healthy frogs and I don't see those abraisions, or the bloodshot eyes.

I'll have to go back at look at Kelly's pics ... I never saw any bloodshot eyes on that frog or what I would call abrasions either.

 

[Ed Clark]

Maybe Ed sent a defective animal, or even a parasite ridden wild caught animal for captive born (he has done this before). Maybe he is trying to weasel out of any blame by answering some questions, ducking others, quoting unnamed sources, and finally, clamming up and refusing to respond at all when finally caught. (he has done this more than twice)

David, this is ridiculous to assume something like this.

What purpose would it serve to ship a defective frog to anyone with the high cost of shipping?

Im one of the very few guys that have been breeding Whites tree frogs for many years.

Someone asked if I currently had any Whites, heres a pic(taken today) of one out of a large group of Australians that I'm raising up. this 1 is about 1 1/2 inches.

Someone asked about me telling Kelly the frog was a male, I heard that frog calling many times and assumed it a male. the sex of the frog is not an issue, I told her that after the deal was done.