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Mike Fortier- Sand & Sun Reptiles- Need the Boards Opinion

the time for an accurate necropsis is quickly running out. Autolysis is deffinately by this time having some effects on the animals and the longer it takes for an necropsis to be performed the wourse the chances of an accurate cause of death being determined. What method Mike F. did you use to preserve the snakes for necropsis?
 
We are at atleast day 2 post death. By this time Autolysis is starting to have some degree of effects on the reptiles. Mike F, what method of preservation of the bodies did you use freezer , fridge, icepack etc. I ask because if there is a probelm with the animals it would be in both your interest to find out just incase there is an issue of cross contamination in both collections.
 
Until now, I have chosen to just monitor this thread and not put in my $0.02. However, things are starting to get a little out of hand, so now you'll get my $0.02 whether you like it or not.

I am the breeder of the corn hatchlings in question. Back in October, Mike F. contacted me regarding purchasing one of my ghost male hatchlings. He had been viewing pics I posted in the Cornsnake Photo Gallery and really liked my ghost het motley adult male. He wanted to add his genetics into his collection. Since I still had several clutches in my possession, I started posting pics {see "2.0 Ghosts (For Mike) in the Photo Gallery - last reply 10/22). The ghost male #126 is the one Mike F. eventually received.

I had multiple e-mail and Private Messages with Mike F. since he wanted multiple corn hatchlings for future breeding projects. I sent him numerous pictures, included genetics and lineage, to come up with a good group for his project. I also told Mike F. that I, personally, did not sell retail. I sell all my hatchlings to Mike B. and he deals with the hassle of shipping, etc.

By the time Mike B. picked up the rest of my '04 hatchlings on 11/7/04, Mike F. had chosen the one male and 4 females. I had contacted Mike B. prior to pick-up stating that Mike F. had already picked out a group of hatchlings and would be contacting him concerning their purchase price, shipping, etc. Mike B. e-mailed me back saying that he had been in contact with Mike F. and the deal had been made.

Upon leaving my care on 11/7/04, the ghost male (DOB 7/3/04) had shed 4 times and had eaten F/T 15 times, never refusing a meal.

The 2 females Mike F. eventually received were not 2 he had originally chosen when talking to me, but I still have their records. Female #158 (DOB 8/7/04) had shed 3 times and had eaten F/T 10 times, never refusing a meal. I'm confused as to the other female purchased. In Mike F.'s PM to me on 12/30/04, stating their arrival into his possession, he gave me #160 but called her a ghost. My records indicate #160 as a normal and #163 as a ghost female. #160 (DOB 8/8/04) shed 3 times and ate F/T 10 times, no refusals. #163 (DOB 8/8/04) shed 3 times, ate F/T twice, refused 2 meals, ate live 5 times in a row, then ate F/T brained twice in a row before being sold to Mike B.

As you can see, all of these hatchlings were well established before leaving my care and I can see no reason that they wouldn't do well for Mike B. as well. Since the hatchlings were in Mike B.'s care for almost 8 weeks before being received by Mike F., my guarantees have expired, but should something show up in necropsy (if any ever gets done), I will still honor them.

As Mike B. has already mentioned, I still have clutchmates to these hatchlings in my possession. Clutchmates to the ghost male can be seen in the Photo Gallery under "'04 Ghost Sisters", last reply 12/9. Two clutchmates of the females can be seen under "'04 Ghost Motley Pair" last reply 12/10 (Autumn is the clutchmate) and under "'04 Hypo Motley" last reply 12/5. I can take current pics on a dated newspaper at any time to verify their health.

Later in November, I heard that Mike F. had finally chosen a total of 9 hatchlings, again after multiple pics being sent from Mike B., Mike B. had given Mike F. a very sweet deal on the group, and that Mike B. was just waiting for payment before shipping out the hatchlings. On or around 12/1, Mike B. e-mailed me stating that Mike F. had totally backed out of the deal. I sent Mike F. a PM on 12/1 inquiring about what happened since the last I had heard, Mike F. had sent out a money order the day before Thanksgiving. On 12/2, Mike F. sent a reply stating that he found the MO in his house but he needed the money to buy a new monitor for his computer but that he would send Mike B. $40 for his time, effort and for keeping and feeding the hatchlings for the extended amount of time. I immediately replied stating that I fully understood how things happen and that I would have other hatchlings in '05 if he was still interested. On 12/4, I received a PM from Mike F. stating that he now had more money since he was payed back from a loan he had made but had forgotten about, and that he would now buy only 1.2 hatchlings and sent Mike B. something extra for his inconvienence. That was the last I heard until a PM from Mike F. on 12/30 stating that he had received 1.2 hatchlings, was a little worried about the male being a bit thin, but that all 3 had eaten F/T just after a few hours in their new tanks. The next thing I know, I received an e-mail from Mike B. saying that a problem has arisen and that I should check the BOI. And that brings us up to this point.

Before reading this BOI thread, and like MIke B., I was under the impression that Mike F. was an adult. And that he also had a business of sorts. Heck, his member ID is Sand & Sun Reptile, which indicates a business to me. And I don't know of too many minors with a business. All of his posts, e-mails and PMs that I read sounded like I was dealing with an intellegent adult...up until this thread however. I should have picked up on something being "wrong" when he originally backed out of the deal with Mike B. and his excuses, but I believed him at the time.

Everybody loses hatchlings, even well-established ones, but an entire shipment from the same source in a very short time is disturbing, to say the least. I am extremely interested, and concerned, about the fate of the 3 hatchlings since they were my "children", and if anything shows up on necropsy, I need to go over my own collection of 84 corns with a fine tooth comb. If the cause of death of the hatchlings is proven back to my collection and my care, Mike B. will be given a full refund on any or all hatchlings he has purchased from me this year.
 
Scott- The snake, upon being found dead was stored in the freezer. I need to get into email contact with Seamus about a collection date. How long before autolysis sets in? The first snake died 17 days from today, the snakes arrived Dec31 I believe. This snake lived the longest, just past the 2 week mark, only eating the day of arrival.
I would also like to see the results of the necropsy, and I will defenitely be in contact with Seamus.
As to why they weren't taken to a vet, there isn't one in my area who would take me. The response I got from the vet I went to prior, with the Ball Pythons, and just about everyone else was I was either out of their area, or they weren't taking any new patients.
Mike B., I will try and get pics for you, we just got a new computer, and I need to load all the programs into the comp, and find the cam. But, I will defenitely do my best to get those to you.
 
Just curiosity here, if you had told Susan the male was a bit thin why did you never tell me this?? I was the one whom sold them to you? You had told me nothing but they wrere perfect, you posted on the BOI and my trader feed back they were all perfect. Also if they only fed once for you why did you never tell me even one single time they ever refused for you? Did you try to feed again after they ate flawlessly on frozen thawed the first time? Mike if you were having problems, why did you not notify me before the other two died as this is the first i'm hearing of it. Why wouldn't you want help? Now you want me to refund you on these but you never gave them a chance, you never took them to a Vet, you never told me you had a single problem other than the first one dying mysteriously so I could help. I don't think you ever gave these snakes a chance Mike F.
 
What I've learned from this post

First, If I'm ever looking for another corn, I will definetly give Mike B. a call. Mike B., you asked what you should do in your original post. In my opinion, you've already done everything a responsible business person should do. I would put this incident behind you and not look back.

Mike F. I could care less if your 15 or 50. I look to do business honest people who are concerned with their character and reputation. All it takes for someone to destroy their reputation is 1 lie. You've admitted to more than 1 lie. I tend to be unforgiving with people who are less than honest, and I would never do business with you.

Just my opinion,

Mike
 
Mike (Tai pan) thanks for your support it is greatly appreciated. If your ever looking to buy a Corn from me you will recieving a nice discount like it or not, even though we've never spoke before.

I would also like to add that both Erica and I, fed the remaining snakes we have here frozen thawed and each and EVERY one fed fine as usual. I also recieved a phone call from a nice woman whom met us through educational programs we do for schools and churches in the area to update us. She stated that the 2 Corns she purchased for her kids are doing awesome as well as feeding just fine. She will most likely be posting on the BOI of her experience with us and the quality of the Corns she recieved, although she may not, as I know she has her hands full with her kids (which are going to become future herpetologists wether she knows it or not yet lol).

Michael Beberman
Mother Gecko - Reptiles
 
I also agree with Tai_pan....

I would never consider doing any kind of business with Mike F.! It's lies after lies....

As far as Mike B, I emailed you a few times about some corn snakes and they all looked great! I read the BOI on you and I asked quite a few people on these forums about you and I got nothing but praise about your snakes.. Come springtime, I will surely be in contact with you to purchase some new hatchlings.

Hopefully everything works out for you....

Howard Tiemann
 
I am confused about the necropsy being done, I thought that once the animal was frozen it was impossible to get a necropsy.

I had an animal die 5 days after receipt and requested it back for a nercropsy and was told it would be impossible since it would havebeen frozen for 48 hours before it could be returned. If I had known it could be done after being frozen I would have made sure to get it back instead of letting the issue die thinking it was useless.
 
If you would read YOUR OWN thread wendy, you would know that once it's frozen it's worthless as far as necropsy goes.
 
wilomn said:
If you would read YOUR OWN thread wendy, you would know that once it's frozen it's worthless as far as necropsy goes.

Then why is Seamus going to pick up the snakes and get a necropsy done?

sand&sun said:
- The snake, upon being found dead was stored in the freezer. I need to get into email contact with Seamus about a collection date. How long before autolysis sets in? The first snake died 17 days from today, the snakes arrived Dec31 I believe. This snake lived the longest, just past the 2 week mark,

According to the above statement, one snake has been frozen for at least 17 days and the last has been frozen for 1 or 2 days and the other somewhere inbetween.
 
wilomn said:
If you would read YOUR OWN thread wendy, you would know that once it's frozen it's worthless as far as necropsy goes.

WES,

I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU HAVE TO BE SO SMART MOUTHED ALL THE TIME

But that is why I asked, everyone here is saying time is running out with at least one of them being frozen for over 2 weeks saying the nercropsy needs to be done quickly, so I wanted to know which way was correct.

Can't be done after freezing or can be done after freezing, if YOU READ this thread you will see that according to the info here it can be done.
 
I am not wise to the exacts of a Necropsy, what is done besides slicing them open and looking under the microscope.
I wouldn't know if freezing would be a bad thing in terms of a necropsy.
 
Karen Hulvey said:
Then why is Seamus going to pick up the snakes and get a necropsy done?



According to the above statement, one snake has been frozen for at least 17 days and the last has been frozen for 1 or 2 days and the other somewhere inbetween.

That was my point, didn't know it was going to upset Wes so much to get the correct info about necropsy's being able to be done.
 
Necropsies performed on animals which have been frozen aren't worthless but they are worth less (two words). Tissue is damaged when an animal is frozen, certain tissues more than others and certain problems can become impossible to verify. Others can still be identified as a cause of death... or at least as a cause which LED to death. Given that the animals have been frozen, there's a chance that a necropsy may be completely inconclusive, this is compounded a bit by the small mass involved with neonate corns but there's also a chance that something signifigant may be found. Since I'd be trading in a favor or two (and adding some anti-favors where I owe someone else, I've used up everything I'm owed at the moment) and there wouldn't be any cash changing hands, it's essentially "free" and worth the time... provided I get them fairly soon. If they hit that three week mark, it's really not worth the time or effort... every second they remain unchecked the chances of finding something signifigant go down (the argument can actually be made that the seventeen day one is useless already but...).

I had a brief instant message exchange with Mike F. I was on my way out the door when it happened so it was truncated but he seemed to genuinely want to identify the problem; not just because he felt Mike B was culpable but because finding that truth is important to a few people's collections... He displayed the attitude, intelligence and maturity that he had in the past (not sure if he's been behaving differently in communication with other people but... I didn't see anything which would warrant writing him off as a lost cause based on what he said and his attitude when talking to me) and agreed to email me with an address and some times when it would be okay for me to wander by. Haven't seen an email yet but this was VERY late last night and I assume he'd want to ask his mother about an appropriate time for someone she has never met before to come pawing through her house so it's understandable that there's a slight delay.

If it comes down to an argument based solely on reputation... I've got to support Mike B, he's been dealing with the animals longer and his care and attention is about as close to beyond reproach as is possible. I also see some potential for an easily made mistake on Mike F's part with the feeding and temperature fluxuations of animals which would be at least slightly stressed from the shipping. This would be an easy mistake for ANYONE to make though and if he is at fault it's not the kind which comes with signifigant blame attached. I *like* both these guys as people and can't really express any hope for a particular outcome other than some kind of mutually acceptable if not ideal outcome. It's a crappy situation to see, that's for sure.
 
Seamus Haley said:
Necropsies performed on animals which have been frozen aren't worthless but they are worth less (two words). Tissue is damaged when an animal is frozen, certain tissues more than others and certain problems can become impossible to verify. Others can still be identified as a cause of death... or at least as a cause which LED to death. Given that the animals have been frozen, there's a chance that a necropsy may be completely inconclusive, this is compounded a bit by the small mass involved with neonate corns but there's also a chance that something signifigant may be found. Since I'd be trading in a favor or two (and adding some anti-favors where I owe someone else, I've used up everything I'm owed at the moment) and there wouldn't be any cash changing hands, it's essentially "free" and worth the time... provided I get them fairly soon. If they hit that three week mark, it's really not worth the time or effort... every second they remain unchecked the chances of finding something signifigant go down (the argument can actually be made that the seventeen day one is useless already but...).

Thank you for the correct information Seamus!!!

The information I found was the same as what you have stated and I feel stupid now for beleiving people like Wes who told me it was 100% a waste of time.

My Vet stated it could be done as long as it was within a week, the animal was properly and quickly frozen and properly thawed but that some info would be lost. The info I found online later aslo stated that it could be done but that the histopathological evaluation would not be viable which was the same info I received from my Vet.

:uzi: But I was told here that my Vet was wrong and it was a 100% waste of time.

Glad to finally get the correct info and thanks again, next time I will know IT CAN BE DONE but that some info will be lost!
 
Wendy, what I stated above has absolutely NOTHING to do with your transaction. I was also typing it when you were making your exchanges here on yet another thread that again, has NOTHING to do with you.

Mike F suspects a parasite load, an animal which has been frozen can be necropsied and there's a chance that a determination can be made about that specific problem and a number which manifest with similar symptoms. My statements were made as a generalization when a problem is completely unknown and about the specific potential problems which Mike F believes may have led to the death of these animals.

Do NOT hijack this thread with more of your ignorant CRAP and rambling insanity. You have your thread, go spew your idiocy THERE and leave this one untainted.
 
The point I see here is WHY does Mike F. think it's parasites? Other than they died within 2 weeks of each other, although by Mike Fs post the third was either dead on 1-15 or 1-16 he couldn't really tell and had to check again 24 hours later. Why is anyone really giving any thought to a 15 year old kids 'best uneducated guess' when thats purely all it is. What leads to the diagnosis of parasites from Mike F? He's sure it's not his care, which we know now is debatable, but he's so sure it's parasites, I bet Mike F. wouldn't know a parasite if it bit him. I bet Mike F. has no clue what parasites are commmon to these snakes or could name a single reptile species specific parasite at all. The only real reason the word parasite came up is due to the fact that then it must have been someone else's fault but his own. Some common symptoms of parasites would be refusal to feed, well we know they ate perfectly on frozen thawed after the stress of shipping and he NEBER once made mention to me of a single refusal. All the siblings that I have and the orignal breeder still have are doing great, the ones sold to other customers are doing great, just Mike F seems to be really having a problem, talk about speices specific lol. Another possible symptom would be irregular fecal matter, no report of that either, he never even mentions anything but how perfect they were. So what does lead Mike F. to say it's parasites?!?!?! Nothing more than shock value to threaten me with giving him a refund with no proof to not see my untarnished name on the BOI with the word parasite in it (read his email to me which prevoked all this). Mike F. put off the necropsy as long as he could orignally, and still to this date I have NO pics of any of the animals which I have requested here on the BOI, in a PM on Fauna, and a AOL email to him (which he has not yet read though). I want pics of each individual snake's dorsal area from head to tail, as well as one pic of all three lined up next to each other to verify the best I can that we are even talking about the same animals.
 
As to why they weren't taken to a vet, there isn't one in my area who would take me. The response I got from the vet I went to prior, with the Ball Pythons, and just about everyone else was I was either out of their area, or they weren't taking any new patients

You know you don't have a vet willing to take your animals, but continue to buy them?
 
Wait, vets will take you no matter if you're in their area or not.

I use a vet over 60 miles from here for my reptiles and I still use my old vet for my dogs, and he is about 45 miles away, although I am starting to warm up to a local vet.

Vets for the most part don't care about anything but the animals and the money to pay for it.
 
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