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Morph King Mojaves

Dave,
Maybe it was a bad attempt at a hypothetical analogy. The point I hoped to make was that an original producer of high-end ball morphs would, and for that matter all producers of high-end morphs, know that their ability to sustain high initial prices is based on the desire of the customer to buy breeding investments, not just a pretty snake. No one was going to shell out 10-20K for a pretty yet neutered piebald. Everyone who bought Mojave's etc, at the higher prices, paid the extra money so as to be an entrepreneur with their animals, not just to view it in eternal bliss and never breed it. Rich's post wiped away the aura of BS that a few tried to hide behind in their holier-than-MKR diatribes. Sorry to offend, but Cathy was the textbook example of BS with her accusations and holiness. Nothing new there. Wish there wasn't risk with the hope of quick $ with a co-dom, but to think otherwise is just plain stupid. Some of the arguments suggest that your "fellow breeder" had some obligation to jeopardize or reduce his income earning potential so as to preserve yours ? That is a socialist BS argument, and seems to be the basis of your claims. I have to give you sincere credit for not going off on the ridiculous tangents of others here who tried to impugn the integrity of MKR because that is all they seem to know how to do. I have known the frustration of the capitalist system often myself, as have all the other bigger breeders of reptiles who posted here. As I have said several times, this thread has been refreshing for the number of respected entities it enticed to post. These are all folks who would benefit by the ability to sustain any form of monopoly in their area of the reptile industry, but who also know that's not how the game is played. On the flip side we get these home-hobbyists with keyboards who have nary a clue, but who feel some sense of self-worth by being able to post here and trash a successful business. They risk little if anything, for outside of Fauna no one ever heard of them. On the upside, despite their tirades and nonsense, they aren't even a piss-ant on MKR's radar. No surprise. Hope that cleared things up, and despite your frustrations, you've been honest in them.
 
hhmoore said:
And just a simple question to the Fauna regulars that have been vocal about what MKR did with this price drop, their lack of ethics, etc - How many of you were sounding off at Bob Woodard, aka Griz, when he pretty much pi$$ed on the sunglow market and undercut everybody on albino boas? (Ed, put your hand down, lol) Seems like pretty much the same thing to me...so if you weren't complaining then, why not?? Because you deal with Bob on this site, and have a degree of respect for him? Because you don't have a nickel invested (not involved with that particular species/morph)??

Sorry to drag that in here, Bob, but it was the best example I could think of.
Click to expand...

No biggie Harrald. But, here is the difference. Only the uneducated truly thought that I had pissed on the market. I had one guy insist that he was selling Sunglows all day at $5000 a piece. Here's a little insider secret for some of you....... The prices you see on Kingsnake and private websites are almost NEVER the prices in which the animals sell for! IF, sunglows were flying out his door at $5000 a piece then ask yourself this.......why am I still sitting on sunglows? Why did the market follow suit and now the average price of a sunglow is $2500-$3000? The reasoning is simple, only a few people where buying at the $5000 price point. They were buying them at that price simply because they were uneducated enough to understand where the market was going. I priced my animals exactly where I thought they would be once a few litters hit the marketplace. And you know what? I was right on the money.

Griz
 
Griz,
All just IMO, but I think that every rational entity who posted here about anything remotely capitalism didn't bat an eye at any possible negative inference by Harald towards you. For us, there was none. On the contrary, I took it that his only motivation was to display the shallowness and nonsense of those who had excessively critisized MKR. Maybe I am assuming too much, but I believe he was referring to them as hypocritical know-nothings ..... at least that's my take :) While we don't agree on all points, from what I have read here, you sit just fine with those that have accomplished something in this business. Otherwise .... you can't please everyone.
 
Chameleon Company said:
Griz,
All just IMO, but I think that every rational entity who posted here about anything remotely capitalism didn't bat an eye at any possible negative inference by Harald towards you. For us, there was none. On the contrary, I took it that his only motivation was to display the shallowness and nonsense of those who had excessively critisized MKR. Maybe I am assuming too much, but I believe he was referring to them as hypocritical know-nothings ..... at least that's my take :) While we don't agree on all points, from what I have read here, you sit just fine with those that have accomplished something in this business. Otherwise .... you can't please everyone.
Click to expand...

I knew what Harrald meant and certainly did not take it incorrectly or harsh. My post was simply to infer that the basis in which several individuals use to extrapolate damages is based upon a known (or at least I thought known) folly. People BELIEVE that the prices they see on Kingsnake are actually what they too will receive. Fact is, rarely do the breeders see those prices.

Griz

PS To be frank, the simple fact that some of my "competition" became upset meant I was doing something right. It also gives a very interesting insight into their mindset.
 
Bob,
In essence, my point was that if somebody is going to cry foul (or lack of ethics, or what have you) for one person "adjusting the market", they should cry just as loud when somebody else does it...regardless of whether they have some knowledge of, or acquaintance to, one party. Likewise, the particular species involved and that person's involvement with a given species (or lack thereof) should have little to no bearing on the discussion at hand. In short, IF the issue is truly based on a perceived lack of ethics or poor business methods, THEN seeing similar behavior from a person they "know", and involving animals they are not invested in, should draw similar response.
 
I know how capitalism is supposed to work...

However, I think everyone here would probably agree that the Ball market is different than most markets. There is supply and demand, but no consumption. You buy only to reproduce, so the production should be limited to what you can sell and a certain price, with knowledge that overproduction will lower the prices. I like Mojaves, and have my Mojave cross male and female, but my bottom line will not suffer from Mojaves selling for $100, much less for $800. I just think the whole Customer Appriciation Sale was them blowing smoke up peoples @$$'s, pretending to "care" so much about their 06 customers, enough to sell them Mojaves at half of the going rate, but in reality, how much do they care about their 05 customers, how much will they care about their 06 customers in 07? I just would have liked to see them say hey, we produced too many, we need to have a sale, sorry people! Their whole advertising is like a used car salesman,,,,we are stepping on the gas,,,etc. LAME, give me a break, and if people are falling for it, fine. However, I can hardly wait until next year when an 06 customer of theirs starts complaining about $200 Mojaves...Blah blah blah. I will not want to hear it!
 
How altruistic of you David! Let's make sure you take care of the 10% of customers who you took advantage of by charging to much in lieu of the 90% who can more than make up for decreased cost in volume alone. Yup, firm grasp on capitalism.... Yup, I am buying it.........

Griz
 
Lloyd Heilbrunn said:
143 posts including a couple by myself :shrug01: ,and I'm still not sure why this is a BOI rather than a General Business thread......
Click to expand...

Because a specific company was named as being the target of this discussion. That qualifies the thread as being relevant for the BOI rather than a *general* business discussion. What you are seeing is a normal case of "off topic drift" which is VERY common here.
 
I do not think anyone involved in Balls is here

to become a Morph factory and drive the price of each morph into the ground. I think it only takes one to start that ball rolling though. I do not make a living off of breeding Balls, so like I have repeatedly stated, I do not care if they lowered the price. What I think is lame is the fact that they say they are lowering the price for their customers, when infact, they are reaming their 04 and 05 customers to gain 06 customers and sell product they obviously overproduced. If their plan all along was to sell as many Mojave males as they could at $800, fine, but do not blow smoke about it, man up and say it. All their used car advertising seems played, and is actually quite annoying. Step on old customers to make new ones....yeah, great idea. The lowering of the price is not what gets me, it is their lame @$$ ads and sloguns, and in their ads they make it seem like they are all for their customers. I am just repeating myself,....you get it or you don't.....

Dave
 
By the way Griz

If the market rate for a Mojave is $2500, and everyone was selling theirs for $2300-2900, and someone bought one at that price, how is that taking advantage of 10% while 90%...Blah, blah, blah....?
 
Griz, so well put !

To be frank, the simple fact that some of my "competition" became upset meant I was doing something right. It also gives a very interesting insight into their mindset.
Click to expand...
And no truer measure is there !!

David ...... what nonsensical BS. So, every time you see an "inventory reduction sale", do you run into the business screaming NONSENSE ! $200 Mojaves are inevitable, and forgive me my candor, but $200 pieds will also come to be ! MKR was just one cog in a process that does not guarantee easy money for those that thought it such. Sorry for their impolite intrusion .... :thumbsup:
 
What I think is lame is the fact that they say they are lowering the price for their customers, when infact, they are reaming their 04 and 05 customers to gain 06 customers and sell product they obviously overproduced.
Click to expand...
Hey David, don't waste your time...

Sorry for their impolite intrusion ....
Click to expand...
Jim, Who are you? What do you do? Why do you think your opinion is so important you need to answer every single post like it was addressed to you?
Everyone knows where you stand.
You are like a bionic troll. :yesnod:
 
David Reid said:
If the market rate for a Mojave is $2500, and everyone was selling theirs for $2300-2900, and someone bought one at that price, how is that taking advantage of 10% while 90%...Blah, blah, blah....?
Click to expand...

Wow, can't believe I have to answer this.....but oh well.

David, when there are numerous breeders producing yet only 10 percent can afford the product..... do I need to elaborate? Can you say collusion? Isn't the act of maintaining an artificially high price, via collusion, the very definition of ''taking advantage of''?

The ironic thing here is the self-inflicted damage being done by the few breeders who agree with doing everything they can to maintain unaffordable prices. I guarantee you that everyone here viewing David's, Ed's, Casey's etc posts will know that there is a tremendous amount of room for negotiating the next time you have an animal for sale. AND if you don't negotiate that it's probably a good sign that one can buy it cheaper elsewhere! How ironic!

Griz
 
Casey, I could not agree more!

Some of these people seem like they have a Thesaurus next to them and take 20 minutes to write a 2 minute post to make sure they have their "Big word" minimum in the post. I love it, and it makes me laugh.

What the hey is an impolite intrusion? Sounds like some jailhouse humor.

The problem with Ball Python sales is they do not rebound like say a car sale. So a Chevy dealer has too many trucks. They mark them down from $22K to $19K. Guess what, the next model year is $23K, not $8K. You pretend market researchers and Capitalists go on thinking you are so far above everyone else, and so smart. There are internet tough guys, and internet smart guys, both make me laugh. What does not make me laugh is imagining what morphs I have that MK has, and what they plan to do to those markets. I really do not care, but would like to at least sell a few snakes to take my vacation. I honestly do not think market models for existing businesses work for Ball sales. I think less is more in our hobby. Everyone does not deserve to have a Lesser, or Mojave, or Pin, etc. Heck, I only own one of those three. I have no problem working my way up to them. And to disguise an oops, we produced more than we can sell at the current price problem as a We are in it for the little man, our customer comes first sale is irritating at best. As far as complaining about everyones weekend sales, of course not, I will have some eventually, but I will not overproduce by 50, what I think I can sell or trade. Someone selling 50 and 30 of a certain morph is a far cry from someone selling their last two Pins for $3k instead of $4K. Let me end this by saying this, if MK came out and said look, we spent $500K starting up our business, we need to make $X this year, and the only way we see to do it is to sell our male Mojaves for $800. I would have been fine with that. BUT, the way they did it with all the used car carnival BS ads and step on the gas, and all, I think they are lame. I will take my business elsewhere, and like I said, I will be waiting to see what the purchasers of the $800 Mojaves have to say in 07 when they are $200.
 
What does 10% of the people being able to afford

the product have to do with collusion, and big breeders conspiring to keep the prices artificially high. I think some of you are artificially high:) Keep it up armchair Economists....

Dave
 
And, what the heck are you trying to say Griz,

in your last paragraph, about negotiations, and ......I did not get it?
 
Here is my opinion on what caused the problem some people have with MKR.

The substantial price drop was 1 week before Daytona and marketed under the guise of "helping out the customers". The timing was deliberate to try and affect certain breeders. It had nothing to do with helping their customers.

They have ties to several people who are the lowest of the low in this industry. Those associations alone make some people not want to deal with them because it shows a lack of standards in some peoples minds.

They are going to drop another "bomb" on the BP morph market next year. This makes people avoid purchases to see what they are going to lowball next season.

It's not about what price they decided to sell at. It's how they went about doing it and the "used car salesman" lingo they used in their ads.

No one says they do not have EVERY RIGHT to sell for ANY price. It's just the way they went about it that ticked off so many people.
 
Wow we still have people claiming they know why MKR sold their animals at the price they did. Why do you keep claiming you know something you don't? your guessing and that is all your doing. Your upset because your not going to make the big bucks you thought you would and have to blame someone else!

David who are you to decide what people should have and what just a select few should?? Oh I know because your trying to sell some of these things everyone shouldn't have. Say what you want but like the others you come off as someone who is pissed because they wont make as much money selling their animals as they thought they would. Hey sorry your made an investment that isn't all you thought it would be but it happens.

Trying to smear someones name because of that is pretty low and doesn't reflect well on the ethics of those who are taking part in it. Randy
 
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