Morph King Mojaves

[David Reid]

Hey Steve...

Nothing has really "happened" to me. I have an awesome day job, great wife, and it is 8:31pm and I just got out of my 88 degree pool water I am expecting my one lone Ember Ball egg to hatch this weekend, and my last Pastel clutch to hatch too, ok, not last, second Last makes it sound like I produced a boat load of Pastels this year, NOT, but I do have one LAST clutch that was Pastel to Pastel too....man, I am a Pastel factory! Ball Pythons are fun for me, a past time, something to look foreward too. $800 Mojaves will do nothing to my "business."

I just think it is irresponsible to sell animals for half what others are under the guise of sticking it to the man and being all about your customers. All about your 06 customers, but what about your 05 and 04 customers? How will the 06 customers feel about their purchase in 07, when the price is $200 each? I will not lose anything, BUT, it has gotten me thinking about things, and I have made a decision to keep my money in my wallet. I may buy some odds and ends, but anything big that I would have spent cash on will be obtained in trade, or not at all. All of you are saying it is just business, and I agree, but the Ball business is not like anything else. I cannot think of any other business where you buy JUST TO REPRODUCE. There is really no consumption, it is buying to make more to sell. That type of market is going to be fragile, and people need to keep it steady. If one person produces 100 snakes of morph "A", and the entire customer base only wants to buy 150, the production may have been too much. Too many animals, equals lower prices. I just feel that they over produced, and now are dumping animals under the guise of being customer friendly.

 

[Wilomn]

timmy bowels and bobby pruett are scumsucking turdburglers and there is no doubt of it.

I personally cannot stand either of them and sincerely wish they would cease to breathe.

On a personal level, I cannot condone selling to them.

However, I do NOT require all other breeders of scaley creatures to adhere to my standards and not only that, I'll actually fight to see that no one HAS to adhere strictly to ANYONE ELSE'S standards.

I think a lot of the problems people like Cat have is that THEY, the ones like Cat, are just good honest friendly people who have seen in the past few years some real good money being made in reptiles as well as some folks having a good time making that real good money. She and those like her expected things to remain as they have been, at least, as they have been on the surface; breeders producing and buyers buying and everyone looking forward to raising up those purchases and seeing some sort of return, whatever the expected percentage, and the joy of working with and producing live things.

Then, there's the Brotherhood of the Ball, the big breeders and their friends who I still say were colluding to keep prices high for as long as possible, leaving just enough available or producing just enough for the general public to keep prices up and curiousity piqued. I bet they had plans and notes and secret meetings and all that covert stuff, all to keep themselves in the forefront of the money makers with ball morphs.

THEN there's MKR. They don't give a crap about anything but making money on thier investment and if it were ANYTHING, almost, other than ball pythons and they had realized such a great return, I bet most would be patting them on the back for doing so well NO MATTER WHO THEY SOLD TO because to them, money is just money.

Now I'm just guessing here as I have no idea what their motivation was/is nor do I really care. I think it sucks that they let scumbags like bowels and pruett get any kind of deal at all, but, and here is a real important part of this novella, IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS who they sell to.

I'll go on record right here and now and say I think they're turds for selling to scumbags. I'd say so to their faces.

And, because I firmly believe that they just don't care who they sell to, if they had something I liked at a price I thought was good, I'd buy it because, I think, to them, none of this is personal, it's all dollar signs.

This is DIAMETRICALLY opposed to the way Cat and others do business. They really do care about who, not just profit and they can't see, thankfully I suppose, how anyone could NOT care about who buys their offspring.

For some, it's all about the money. For some it's not. Neither are inherrantly wrong nor bad nor unethical.

They're just not the same and most likely never will be.

The bottom line though, is that neither are at fault for thier beliefs.

 

[mattjillson]

BOOOO-F-ing-HOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with a lot of what Wes said but in the case of people like Cat - I am just using her as a reference because there are no other rabid entheusiasts coming out of the wood work to really make an example of, could be joe blow for all I care - who yes, might care about who they sell to and take the time to raise healthy animals to go to market with and care well for their collection but...... I mean, c'mon man, this is all about making money dude. Or in this case lack there of. Pure and simple, no way around it.

If you are worried about your "investment" tanking by '07 it is probably a junk bond to begin with and serves you right for believing in the hype. You see, the problem with people like Cat is that while on one hand they are alledgedly reputable keepers and breeders on the other they are still trying to look out for themselves. Nothing wrong with that except that false "valiant crusaide" part. What a load of BS. When you start to mess with a person's money it gets personal and you start to see the exact behavior a person like Cat is displaying: irrational hate and jealousy. I mean that avatar of hers is such a great foil to who the person is behind those posts. Show some proof of some real "bad guy" $hit or just shut up. I haven't heard of one person saying they got defective product or wasn't shipped an animal for 8 months on account of a cold Winter. Where is the crime???????? This is a forum post in the best of circumstances and tacky at that. What this has digressed into isn't BOI material at all. Grow up Cat or whoever is upset they are getting beat to market. Do better with your project if you are pissed or throw down your cards and leave with your tail between your legs. This whining is annoying.

Matt Jillson

 

[WebSlave]

Can't say I have read ALL of this thread, but I have skimmed through most of it.

People have been predicting a ball python crash for a while now. I know some vendors were disappointed at Expo this year, but I didn't see anyone jumping out of windows. Not saying THIS is the crash, but it may just be a self fulfilling prophesy if everyone expects it to happen.

Were Mojaves selling like hotcakes before Morph King lowered the prices? Or were sales slow? I know I have sometimes had animals sitting on my price list for a LONG time and not see them budge for months or more. When that happens, the obvious answer is that the price is too high for the existing market to be interested in buying them. So you either have to keep them forever hoping SOMEONE will buy them at that price, or you lower the price to move them along and let someone else feed them.

Realistically, and in my opinion, anyone who buys a sexual pair of animals has one thing in mind to do with them. Breed them. And what do they expect to do with the babies? Keep them all? I doubt it. So even on a small scale, EVERYONE buying pairs of ball pythons was/is doing it with the intent of making money, even if it is only to break even. The INTENT is still to MAKE MONEY doing it. The idea is to SELL at least some of those babies at whatever the market will bear for them at that time. What you may HOPE that price point will be, may have nothing at all to do with reality at that time.

Quite frankly, I believe the smaller breeders HATE to see the bigger breeders drop prices for one primary reason: They check out the bigger breeders' price lists, and put THEIRS on the market for 20 percent or more lower. What else can they use as a competitive edge except price? So when the big names drop their prices from $1600 to $800, the smaller, lesser known breeders have to drop theirs from $1200 to $600 to even HOPE to make sales. And quite honestly, they likely have to make a BIGGER cut in prices, because where previously they had a $400 advantage in price, they now only have a $200 advantage, which just may not be enough to get someone to choose a lesser name provider over a better known name. So they wind up losing even more when the prices ratchet down rapidly.

And when prices begin dropping, people lose incentive to buy NOW, when prices may be cheaper next month. Let's face it, no one NEEDS to buy a snake. And if they could save a good chunk of change waiting out the sellers (who are losing money EVERY WEEK on animals that aren't selling,via feed and labor costs maintaining them) they will most likely do so. Time is on their side, because quite frankly, the bigger name breeders producing large volumes of animals HAVE to look at the bottom line in what they are doing. NOBODY gets they feeders for free nor people helping out as volunteers without pay. They are running a BUSINESS and have to treat it that way. So many of the decisions to cut prices to move stock are simply a way to try to make the losses LESS now then they might be in another month or two.

Fact of the matter is, it appears that prices on ball pythons just could not sustain the levels they were doing. After all, just how many people are around willing to spend $30K on a snake? When that market is gone, then the sellers have to try shooting for the $20K market. SOMEONE always has to be first to realize that the current market is now dead and make that move to reach the next lower one. Probably perceiving when this has happened and trying to call that shot correctly is highly competitive in nature. First one making the correct call collects most of the marbles. The last one probably STILL doesn't make any sales because now THAT market has saturated. Even though the other sellers will certainly know what is going on, those BUYERS who were the very last ones to spend that $30K on an animal are really not going to be happy about it. No one likes to think that if they had but waited another month, they could have saved a bunch of money on the exact thing they just bought. And I may be wrong about this, but I don't think ANYONE offers price protection after the sale.

But since this entire industry we are taking part in is pretty much a pyramid scheme anyway, this is really just the way it works. It's just a matter of figuring out where you are on that pyramid and hoping you are not sitting on the bottom with a LOT of other people with LOTS of animals to sell, and no one to sell them to. At least not at the price you had HOPED they would be worth at that time.

 

[Cat_72]

timmy bowels and bobby pruett are scumsucking turdburglers and there is no doubt of it.

I personally cannot stand either of them and sincerely wish they would cease to breathe.

On a personal level, I cannot condone selling to them.

However, I do NOT require all other breeders of scaley creatures to adhere to my standards and not only that, I'll actually fight to see that no one HAS to adhere strictly to ANYONE ELSE'S standards.

I think a lot of the problems people like Cat have is that THEY, the ones like Cat, are just good honest friendly people who have seen in the past few years some real good money being made in reptiles as well as some folks having a good time making that real good money. She and those like her expected things to remain as they have been, at least, as they have been on the surface; breeders producing and buyers buying and everyone looking forward to raising up those purchases and seeing some sort of return, whatever the expected percentage, and the joy of working with and producing live things.

Then, there's the Brotherhood of the Ball, the big breeders and their friends who I still say were colluding to keep prices high for as long as possible, leaving just enough available or producing just enough for the general public to keep prices up and curiousity piqued. I bet they had plans and notes and secret meetings and all that covert stuff, all to keep themselves in the forefront of the money makers with ball morphs.

THEN there's MKR. They don't give a crap about anything but making money on thier investment and if it were ANYTHING, almost, other than ball pythons and they had realized such a great return, I bet most would be patting them on the back for doing so well NO MATTER WHO THEY SOLD TO because to them, money is just money.

Now I'm just guessing here as I have no idea what their motivation was/is nor do I really care. I think it sucks that they let scumbags like bowels and pruett get any kind of deal at all, but, and here is a real important part of this novella, IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS who they sell to.

I'll go on record right here and now and say I think they're turds for selling to scumbags. I'd say so to their faces.

And, because I firmly believe that they just don't care who they sell to, if they had something I liked at a price I thought was good, I'd buy it because, I think, to them, none of this is personal, it's all dollar signs.

This is DIAMETRICALLY opposed to the way Cat and others do business. They really do care about who, not just profit and they can't see, thankfully I suppose, how anyone could NOT care about who buys their offspring.

For some, it's all about the money. For some it's not. Neither are inherrantly wrong nor bad nor unethical.

They're just not the same and most likely never will be.

The bottom line though, is that neither are at fault for thier beliefs.

Thank you Wes........at least I know one person understands what I've been trying to say, and I think you've made more sense than anyone else on this entire thread, myself included.

And my avatar is my dog smiling, lol. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but he smiles when he's happy, or wants a treat..or a belly scratch....or just to be cute. He hides under the desk when strangers come over.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I’ve not read the entire thread either~ I’ve just dropped through and read bits and pieces of it. I tell ya though~ the bits and pieces I’ve read have increased my support of Morph King where as I had been somewhat disappointed with them in the recent past. I do own BPs. And I have always suspected/sort of known there were backdoor deals that I just did not qualify for as I’m not “in good” with any of the big boys. I didn’t realize just how good those backdoor deals where though~ or more to the point just how hard I was getting ganked just for being stupid enough to actually look at the offering price. If you actually read the thread Cat recently linked us to~ well apparently Majoves have been walking out the bookdoors of breeders for about $800 all season~ and at least some of them have walked out doors for $500.

I don’t own a Majove~ and I’m very grateful. Because I would have paid something close to the asking price~ and I don’t like being done that way………someone should at least buy you dinner first.

 

[Junkyard]

I keep reading along and start to type out a post, this will actually be about the 5th time I am doing this for one thread. MKR made the decision to drop prices, apparently the Mojave's were not selling fast enough, so they wanted to sell out and move on. That does not mean everyone else needs to do it too, it is a personal choice of where you set your prices.

Thinking of the pastel market, beginning of last year females were selling for $2,700. Now they are selling for about $500. That happens with co-doms, we saw it happen to pastels, so why get so upset when it happens to Mojave's. I am sure everyone who experienced or just watched as that happened knew it would happen again with a different morph. This is not a surprise for anyone, we all(those who cared) could have placed bets on this happening and came out millionaires. A bunch of new millionaires will only throw the market crossed eyed anyway.

Ball pythons are not the only product this has ever happened to. Other contries changed the vehicle market, at one time vehicles were only bought by the wealthy, now even the poorest of people can own a car. I wonder how Ford, GM, and Dodge felt when Import cars started flowing into the country and taking over the market and out selling them. Probably exactly how Cat and Ed are feeling now.

These breeders are here for the money, I can care less who they deal with as long as they do not do their customers wrong. They have a huge inventory, they planned for this probably when they put animals together last year for breeding. They knew exactly what affect this move would have, some people would be really upset, some would take advantage of the opportunity.

This whole thread is advertising for MKR, many who did not know they had great prices and do not care about the market probably called them up. That is if any Mojave's have even sold. This is the ball python market, did the whole market actually crash, no, just the Mojave morph did. The market is still strong, over the next many many years there are still people that want to purchase snakes, do you get out now because of MKR? Or do you stick it out and flow with the fluctuation? There are some that do quite fine selling only corn snakes, not that expensive of a snake with so many morphs. If you are counting on ball pythons to make you rich, sorry, you should have come into the market a few years ago. If you did not have the money then, well, prices have dropped and you can afford them now.

Think back of why you got into the reptile industry, was it for money or as a hobby? If it was for money, produce something new, move on to something different, get out, or stick with it. If it was as a hobby, now is your chance to afford that great looking morph that only those who had $10,000 to spend could buy. Reptiles should never be looked at as a get-rich-quick business.

 

[SPJ]

I can care less who they deal with as long as they do not do their customers wrong.

And that is where myself and a few others do not agree with what appears to be the majority here.

I would rather pay extra for an animal from someone who IMO is not dealing with people who have been proven to be indesirable. In the end you may get a nice animal from each source but I would rather support someone who is not out to make a buck by selling to anyone that waves the cash in front of them.

I have and will continue to refuse sales to people who I do not feel are worth doing business with. I care about the animals I sell and they will not go to just anyone with the money. If it means a lost sale, fine. I do not care.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Mike ... and others who posted the basic economics of the commodity known as Mojave balls ....

Couldn't agree more. I also think that much of the dissent aimed at MKR went beyond failure to understand, or disapproval of, their pricing choices. I don't think anyone questioned a nay-sayer's right to not do business with MKR, or not to like them. What a few did here was go well beyond just disagreeing with MKR, making unfounded ethics allegations, or painting with some broad "guilt by association" brush, and then speculating as to MKR's attitudes so as to criticize those "assumed attitudes" as if they were gospel fact. A half-dozen or more posters here pointed this out, asking for some proof, and only more innuendos were put on parade as explanations. Pointed out by a few, and lost by some, was that MKR seems to have many happy customers.

In a couple of recent posts, I think Wes drew the lines appropriately. And SPJ, I agree with your last post, as it addresses your standards for your conduct as a buyer or seller. I doubt anyone here would deny you your entitlement to those choices.

IMO, it was nice to see so many knowledgable entities not only attempt to provide some Economics 101, but with regard to making unfounded accusations and incriminations, some Ethics 101 as well.

 

[hhmoore]

If what was said in at least one of the other threads (from another forum) can be believed, the bulk of the price slashed animals were purchased by another big breeder...at least from the initially released group. If that is the case, all of this banter is people getting worked up over nothing - if the consumers didn't get the deal, and now have to purchase at everybody else's higher prices, what is the problem. Sure, many businesses have adjusted their pricing on Mojaves, but only the rare "average Joe" has gone to MKRs lowball price. I'm not denying it didn't have an impact on people's perceptions and willingness to buy, but the overall impact doesn't seem as disastrous as anticipated...yet.

And just a simple question to the Fauna regulars that have been vocal about what MKR did with this price drop, their lack of ethics, etc - How many of you were sounding off at Bob Woodard, aka Griz, when he pretty much pi$$ed on the sunglow market and undercut everybody on albino boas? (Ed, put your hand down, lol) Seems like pretty much the same thing to me...so if you weren't complaining then, why not?? Because you deal with Bob on this site, and have a degree of respect for him? Because you don't have a nickel invested (not involved with that particular species/morph)??

Sorry to drag that in here, Bob, but it was the best example I could think of.

 

[David Reid]

They overproduced the animals

And had to lower the prices which affected everyone. Not smart, and not cool. They chose to breed to a ton of normal females, instead of making crosses, which produced a ton of Mojaves, that they could not sell fast enough at the going price. My point is, the Ball market is fragile, and unlike other businesses, and some foreward thinking is needed. Producing a ton of one morph is not smart foreward thinking, and then pretending to be in it for your customers is plain insulting.

Dave

 

[Chameleon Company]

David,
From their point-of-view, it may have been very forward thinking. They may be the one's "laughing last" in this scenario, or "all the way to the bank", although I admit it is too soon to say. I would suggest, as many have in this thread, that the "ball market is fragile" because it is over-hyped and over-priced, and like the ".com" bubble of the late '90's, will surely burst. It has never been a question of "if", just "when", and by all estimations, the answer is "soon".

 

[hhmoore]

David, you are absolutely correct...as is anybody that may have commented that the Big Names controlled production and release of morphs to keep prices up. That is from the opposing school of business dynamics; but given the situation (a commodity that can reproduce itself), it was a sound decision and plan. On the other hand, they supposedly only released 50 mojaves at that price, which certainly isn't enough to saturate the market. The interest is still there...unfortunately (for some) it now comes with a more "consumeresque" attitude.

 

[David Reid]

If the Ball bubble is going to burst,

why pump it full of air and make it burst sooner. What "gets" me is the way they made it seem like they were selling for half what everyone else is to help out their customers. I call BS. They looked at their racks and found they produced way too many, and tried to find a way out that did not make them look like idiots. OK, lets have a sale and say it is for our customers. Last point is, not everyone should have a Mojave or Lesser. Does everyone here drive a Ferrari? NO, some things should be exclusive, or require work to get there. My point is, there ARE Balls for every budget, Mojaves should not be a first morph unless you can afford it...Glad I have a day job and do not really need anything from my Ball biz. Overproduction and greed is what will doom the Ball market and business for everyone who does not own a shop.

Dave

 

[David Reid]

By the way, I think 50 Mojave could Saturate the

market. I will not pretend to know the numbers, but 50 of any morph is alot.

Dave

 

[Chameleon Company]

David,
There is only one manufacturer of Ferrari's. I would also not agree that MKR looked at their racks one day and said "geez, look what we produced ... too many Mojave's". This next statement does not fit the capitalist model for a self-reproducing commodity as we enjoy it here:

Last point is, not everyone should have a Mojave or Lesser. Does everyone here drive a Ferrari? NO, some things should be exclusive, or require work to get there.

Oh really !

Referencing what was pointed out by Rich (I think), how about this "what-if": The original morph producers were able to inexpensively spay or neuter their offspring, and then sell such as "breeders" or "just pets, unable to breed", kind of a quasi-licensing fee to be able to reproduce them, for those that wanted to pay for the right, who could then sell their's with a similar licensing fee. What would the price differential have been and why? How many "not in it for the money" would still pay the higher price so as to "be in it for the money"? Trying not to laugh here.

 

[Chameleon Company]

And as for numbers and possibilities ....

By the way, I think 50 Mojave could Saturate the market. I will not pretend to know the numbers, but 50 of any morph is alot.

Not bragging, but in 2001 I sat in a room drinking a beer with a friend, and there were 92 pied's on the wall, all that year's offspring, not breeders. Trouble is, only the beer was mine. Agreed that co-doms can much more quickly saturate demand, but is this a surprise?

 

[High End Herps Inc]

Not bragging, but in 2001 I sat in a room drinking a beer with a friend, and there were 92 pied's on the wallQUOTE]

"92 cages of pieds on the waaallll, 92 cages of pieds!! Take one down, price it way down, 91 cages of pieds on the waaaaallllll!"

Sorry.... I just couldn't resist.
David

 

[Chameleon Company]

ROFLMAO ..... I was outside with the same tune in my head, only different words for the same memory. But besides the humor, and all the many conclusions that can be drawn, I did hope to impart two:

1) The price has always been about investment; and
2) Co-doms are not the place to invest if you are hoping for stability and ROI.

"92 pieds and my beer on the wall, 92 pieds and my beeeeeeeer ..... took one down, passed it around, all I got was my beer off the waaaall ......."

 

[David Reid]

Spaying, neutering,,,,,did not follow that at all!

AND, that is not what is happening. Everyone can think what they want, we all have our opinions.