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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Morph King Mojaves

I agree, for most of us it is a hobby, I feel for you and others that put the time and effort into making this your livelyhood. I look at it this way, if prices drop by 1/2 a year and by selling or trading extras I can break even....I am doing OK, what other hobby can you break even on? You on the otherhand, breaking even is not an option. I will still buy from you because I have gotten quality in the past and know I will in the future. It is a buyers market at this time, gas is $3 a gallon, insurance and taxes here in S Fl are crazy, and most people need the spare cash to get to work. Those that realize it is not a get-rich-quick game will get out and eventually the market will ballance. I think the days of $50,000 pythons are over but for those that love doing it, there will always be customers. I also agree on holdbacks...the price of large, breeding animals has not dropped as much and you never have enough females so hold back the females, get what you can for the males and have fun doing it...Personally, I figured it would be years till I could get a lesser platy, now I think I will have one next year, think of how many more customers you will have when the prices are where more can afford them. That one snake for $30,000 would sit there for a long time till someone dropped the cash, but at $3000 many more are willing to buy so you still make your money back, and how many hobbiests stop at one animal??? Pets and vacations are one place that people spend. Be diverse, give great customer service, and love what you are doing and things will be fine..
 
Dave
stating that there will be no consumption in morph ball pythons and that people only buy them to breed will be the ultimate failure in our little sub industry. If we want it to survive there must be end user consumption (people that just want a pet)--if there is not this whole product line will be gone before the next 3 years or so. By next year people will be buying mojaves as pets, just as they are buying pastels and albinos as pets this year. I have sold 2 albinos as strictly pets this year, and probably 12 or more pastels. Maybe the people will breed them, but they did not buy them for that reason. There is a market for consumption on morphs less than $1500. Most pet sales will be under $500 however. By next year pastels will be in more average pet stores that will sell them for $200-$300. It is crucial that this happens. It will mainstream morphs into the more general public, and spark more interest in higher end morphs. You never know who that end user will show his or her morph to that might really be interested in them, only to become the next big spender. This happens alot. For people really that concerned with prices dropping you have to ask yourself, are you in this to make money over the next few years, or are you truly interested in the long term plan. If you answer is the first, then i understand your being upset. If you answer is the second, then i would not drop a bit of sweat, and just be happy that everything is happening as it should. Dave, if you are upset about the mojave prices, keep the ones you produce and raise them and cross them to make combos. Or go with the flow and sell them or trade them at a marketable price. The yellowbellies this year went down just like the mojaves--why should this be?--they produce similar supers--the combos with other morphs have much more potential than the mojaves do. They produce some of the most desirable morphs in the world when combined with some other not so desirable morphs, yet they are as cheap or cheaper than the mojaves. Makes no sense. Why are butters more than lesser?--why are lessers so much more than mojaves when it seem the traits are all to similar with the lessers being more visually attractive, but not enough to make them 2 1/2 times more expensive. Questions questions questions that have no great answers. Again--balls are just in there infancy as a mainstream product. It will get better and better. I mean come on--we are breeding snakes that we get alot of money for. I can sell 4 yb females and will have enough to go to brazil fishing for peacock bass for 7 days-airfare included and spending money. Last year with 5 clutches of snakes i bought a mamba edition viper with 3000 miles on it and had some left over. This year it took 9 clutches of snakes to make a similar return to last year(had some bad odds!). The average person who is not into reptiles comes in my store and i have a mojave out for $1500 for a baby. They say" who in there right mind would pay that much for a snake" let alone $5000 or $20,000. The do not understand it, but they do understand someone dropping $1500 for a yapping mini chihuahua that there are a million of in the world. This will change over the next decade. When someone tells me they just spent $1000 on a koi, i think they are nuts , but when someone tells me they just spent 80k on a porsche turbo I get jealous. I guess some people will never understand, but the more that do, the more everyones business will grow. The fact of the matter is, no matter how much money you make, it is never enough--if you make 20k a year or 200k a year--it is never enough. Money will truly not buy hapiness. But if you like what you do for a living and make enough to get by and pay your bills, you should consider yourself very lucky. I get to play with snakes. Sometimes I feel a little burnt out, but after all these years, i still love my job. I consider myself lucky. I started keeping balls 4 years ago, and i have only produced clutches the last 2 years, and i still love pipping eggs and seeing what is inside. You cannot put a price on that.
Ben Siegel
 
Very well put Ben,I am glad to see some solid posts instead of all the fighting .Too many get off topic and make the threads their own.Terry
 
You must have missed the 20 or so posts

where I said I did not care about the money, or the price drop. I know all about Economics from the same classes that the "internet" Economists took in school, that now makes them so smart. My problem was not with the price drop, it was with the way they did it. All about the customers!! And my point is, all about their 06 customers, what about the 05, and 04 customers? How will the 06 customers feel in 07 when their awesome $800 Mojave is selling for $150. My opinion is they produced too many animals to sell at the current price, and they dumped animals. Some say they had an agenda, I do not know, some are peeved because it happened right before Daytona, that does wreak of some agenda, but who knows...I think it was lame the way they did it...ads saying we are all about our customers, hit the gas, etc. I think it was a smoke screen for someone who overproduced. LET ME BE PERFECTLY CLEAR, $800, OR $200 MOJAVE'S WILL NOT BOTHER ME AT ALL FINANCIALLY! My problem was with the BS ads they had, touting their customer service, when they were really just dumping animals they overproduced. I have Het Pieds, Het Axanthics, Het Clowns, Het Caramels, Ghosts, Pastels, YB's, Pastel Yb's, my Embers and Mojave cross animals, Pastel crosses, Pastel Het clowns, Albinos, Green Ghosts, soon to have a Striped male female Pin and female Spider. I have TWO Mojave's, and both are Mojave crosses, probably Mojave Fires. The price drop means NOTHING to me. It is not about the money to me, but, I do wonder what morph will be next to be dumped....and is it one I have? It will bug me if the next dump is an animal I have, but I do not make my living off Balls, it is Vacation and Maserati money for me, that is it! I do have sympathy for the people that bought $20K Lessers last year, and the MK customers that bought $5K Mojave's at one point, and now are shaking their heads. I have lost nothing, what this did was shake me to the point that my wallet will stay in my pocket, and I will spend $0 on Balls in the future. That is right, I will get what I want through trades, or go without. This whole post is just repeating what I have already said, so I am done....any questions, please email me. [email protected]

Dave
 
David Reid said:
but, I do wonder what morph will be next to be dumped....and is it one I have? It will bug me if the next dump is an animal I have. Dave
Click to expand...

All of them. Eventually.

All are being mass produced, co-doms and hets alike.

David Beauchemin
 
Hey David,
Just let this thread die, you are wasting your breath... The people posting on this thread (most of them ) obviously don't understand that we are in an investment market and it is NOT OK TO SCREW THE LITTLE GUY or your customers... MKR (market killing reptiles) did not hurt me in the least, nor can they ever. But they did hurt MY CUSTOMERS who i actually care about! Some of them had taken loans to get Mojave's and lessers, and for no reason except - I'm a spiteful child and i want to get back at ______ (insert big breeder here, i know who but cant post the names) because they sell more than me or whatever their pathetic reason was... Tanked that part of the market.

The good thing is CO - DOMS are still THE BEST INVESTMENT! and if those people who got Mojave's and lessers produce them they will make their investment back and then some, it will just take a little longer...


Let me give you an INVESTMENT example:

You Buy
1.0 06 Spider $1200
0.5 04 Normals $200ea $1000

Total = $3200

You buy him now in September and he was born in June ... In February he is 8 months old and 600 grams (which is beyond possible for a spider with out over feeding) You breed him to the 5 females, since he is young only 3 take... Now i always go to bad egg production and even splits when i do my plans, because I'm happy with anything over that way.

so:
spider x normal = 4 eggs 2 spiders
spider x normal = 4 eggs 2 spiders
spider x normal = 4 eggs 2 spiders
spider x normal = nothing
spider x normal = nothing

And you end up with all females =)

6 female spiders x $650 ( i went really low on price, same as above i always go low so anything more is great!) = $3900 in 2007 so you have already turned a profit...
And the scenario is pretty unlikely , you would most likely at least get some males and i do not see them actually being that low... But lets use worst case scenario...

Now in 2007 season
You breed him to all 5 females and ususing the same theory as above you get 10 spiders and well go even lower on the price and you still get all females because at this point god hates you lol

10 x $5000 = $5000

So in 1.5 yr you have turned a profit of $5700 off a $3200 investment not many markets in the world you can do that in (once again we were using the absolute worst case scenario unless of course you stink at breeding =)


NOW SIMPLE RECESSIVE

Lets use albinos... since people always think they are the best investment (they aren't bad =)

You buy
1.0 Albino $1200
0.5 Hets $600 ea (for REAL HETS lol) = $3000
Total $3600

We are going to use the same scenario as above since i don't feel like typing it all out again

2006-2007 season = nothing
2007-2008 season = nothing (some hets?)

2009-2010 season
You breed
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos

10 albinos x $500 (again worst case...) = $5000

So you make a $1400 profit in around 3 yrs

If i understand correctly (and i do ) A BIG COMPANY (and we are talking investments here not breeding what you like, which i think you should do anyways) would ALWAYS pick the MOST AMOUNT OF RETURN IN THE SHORTEST AMOUNT OF TIME POSSIBLE! Which would be CO- DOMS even with the prices going down =)

Simple recessive does hold their value but it takes longer and co - doms go down faster but you get a return quicker... What does that tell us, Hell they are BOTH GREAT INVESTMENTS IF YOU CAN BREED THEM!!!

I bought a cinny last year for $10,000 (he was an adult) and the price is now between 2000 - 2500 am i crying NO, i produced 8 of them and kept 2 so ill sell the 6 left for between 2000 and 2500 and make a profit (sure its not as much as i would have liked, but I'm not greedy and i love my Cinnamon's!) so I'm happy as can be He paid for himself and i can keep producing them year after year!

Also David i wouldn't argue with High End Herps... He did have that AWESOME Burm x Rock Hybrid for $125,000 last year and we all know how many people feel Rock pythons are GREAT investments and super cuddly snakes. I was going to sell all my balls since they are worthless and buy one of those and be the richest man in the world!!!! (sorry High End i had to, just hate seeing people defend MKR for screwing the little guys!)

Hope this helps some of you =) and forget about what MKR did it doesn't matter in the end if you produce babies and treat you customers right you wont have any Competition!!!

Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
 
Jon, lol, you must be using the new math.
look at your numbers in both scenarios.
 
David Reid said:
where I said I did not care about the money, or the price drop. I know all about Economics from the same classes that the "internet" Economists took in school, that now makes them so smart. My problem was not with the price drop, it was with the way they did it. All about the customers!! And my point is, all about their 06 customers, what about the 05, and 04 customers? How will the 06 customers feel in 07 when their awesome $800 Mojave is selling for $150. My opinion is they produced too many animals to sell at the current price, and they dumped animals. Some say they had an agenda, I do not know, some are peeved because it happened right before Daytona, that does wreak of some agenda, but who knows...I think it was lame the way they did it...ads saying we are all about our customers, hit the gas, etc. I think it was a smoke screen for someone who overproduced. LET ME BE PERFECTLY CLEAR, $800, OR $200 MOJAVE'S WILL NOT BOTHER ME AT ALL FINANCIALLY! My problem was with the BS ads they had, touting their customer service, when they were really just dumping animals they overproduced. I have Het Pieds, Het Axanthics, Het Clowns, Het Caramels, Ghosts, Pastels, YB's, Pastel Yb's, my Embers and Mojave cross animals, Pastel crosses, Pastel Het clowns, Albinos, Green Ghosts, soon to have a Striped male female Pin and female Spider. I have TWO Mojave's, and both are Mojave crosses, probably Mojave Fires. The price drop means NOTHING to me. It is not about the money to me, but, I do wonder what morph will be next to be dumped....and is it one I have? It will bug me if the next dump is an animal I have, but I do not make my living off Balls, it is Vacation and Maserati money for me, that is it! I do have sympathy for the people that bought $20K Lessers last year, and the MK customers that bought $5K Mojave's at one point, and now are shaking their heads. I have lost nothing, what this did was shake me to the point that my wallet will stay in my pocket, and I will spend $0 on Balls in the future. That is right, I will get what I want through trades, or go without. This whole post is just repeating what I have already said, so I am done....any questions, please email me. [email protected]

Dave
Click to expand...

How do you define "overproduce"?

Quite frankly, I think anyone who has the capability to produce as many animals as they can which the HOPE they can sell, will do so. Not all expectations are met, obviously. Check out any show and see how many animals vendors bring with them with the hopes they will sell there. Then at the end of the show, check out how many they have to take back with them that did NOT sell. Just the way it works.

So in effect, ANYONE who produces more animals than they can sell immediately is labeled as "overproducing" them with ulterior motives? Or just making a bad call on inflated expectations? Anyone buying animals three years ago who expect the prices to remain that way for all eternity are just naive to the extreme. It just doesn't work that way.

As far as "sales" and "price slashing" being "for the customers", well certainly it is! It is also for the sellers as well. They chose to do it that way for a reason. If things go as planned BOTH will benefit from such an action. The buyer, because they were able to buy animals they probably would not have purchased at the higher price, and the seller, because they were able to move out animals that probably were NOT selling at the higher price. That's the way it works.

When I got to Expo this year and it came time to put prices on the animals for sale, I just priced them with numbers I HOPED would get them to sell. Obviously those prices needed to be lower then on my price list, otherwise they would have already all been sold out and I wouldn't have needed to even be there. This was done to help attract customers, so in a sense, yes you COULD say this was in fact, FOR the customers. But it was for ME as well. I wanted to exchange animals for dead presidents, and hoped there were PLENTY of customers who wanted to exchange dead presidents for my animals. Very few people in business are completely 100 percent altruistic about how they do business. Matter of fact, I cannot remember EVER meeting anyone in any line of business I would consider as such.

Quite simply put, supply and demand is the way it works. When the demand is too low or the supply is too high (which may just be opposite sides of the same coin), adjustments need to be made. If the buyers want prices to stay high, they have to continue buying high to keep it that way. If they stop buying at those prices, then it really leaves the sellers very little choice in what to do in order to stay in business.
 
hhmoore said:
Jon, lol, you must be using the new math.
look at your numbers in both scenarios.
Click to expand...


lol your right, did it fast and didnt proof read...

That should be a cost of $2200 for the spider project
with a profit of $6700 in 1.5 yr

and a cost of $4600 for the Albino project with a profit of $800 in 3 yrs...

Even with my bad math =) it still works out... The correct way improves my point lol

Thanks for pointing that out... (and i was worried about my spelling)

Jon
 
Damn =)

"Now in 2007 season
You breed him to all 5 females and ususing the same theory as above you get 10 spiders and well go even lower on the price and you still get all females because at this point god hates you lol

10 x $5000 = $5000"

THIS SHOULD READ:
10 X $500 = $5000


Hopefully you all get my point... (its really not hard to get)
Keep breeding make a profit and have fun!
Jon
 
nextworld3 said:
lol your right, did it fast and didnt proof read...

That should be a cost of $2200 for the spider project
with a profit of $6700 in 1.5 yr

and a cost of $4600 for the Albino project with a profit of $800 in 3 yrs...

Even with my bad math =) it still works out... The correct way improves my point lol

Thanks for pointing that out... (and i was worried about my spelling)

Jon
Click to expand...

And here I was thinking it was actually a function of your online economics classes! Thanks for elaborating!

Griz
 
Although I understand the original intent of this thread, the spin of the discussion has make it interesting to have it in the General Business Discussions.

Regards
 
Since we're doing math

I have read several posts suggesting that Morph King lowered Mojave pricing to cause economic harm to some un-named big breeder. I guess the identity of the big breeder is a secret, but that many people seem to know that this was MKs intention.

I am just making an educated guess about pricing here, partly based on other posts.

So let's say MK sold 50 Mojaves at $800 = $40,000

Let's say they could have in fact sold them for $1,200 each, but that they wanted to screw the un-named big breeder. If they sold them for $1,200 each, they would have made $60,000.

So two possibilities exist:

1) They made $20,000 less than they could have made, according to the posters that suggest the market could have stayed high for Mojaves, even if the production increased as it invariable would have. They did this to punish another breeder.

2) They made an educated guess at the 2006 market value of Mojaves, their estimate based in part upon how many they were hatching, and upon their guess of how many were hatching across the country.

I would like to hear the story of how they are trying to screw some big breeder. Maybe they perceived some insult from that breeder. Maybe they felt that the big breeder had tried to screw them at some point. There may be an element of truth to this. But to sacrifice $20,000 (or more) to hurt that other breeder would be somewhat hard to believe.

Thank you,

Doug
 
The problem is... They didn't even have the #s they said they did. I know a few people who called to buy from them and they said they had eggs in the incubator... They were taking deposits for babies that were "supposed to hatch"... If you feel the need to lower your price, make sure you have the animals on the ground and feeding. Don't go pre - selling at a ridiculously low prices. Come on what if they didn't produce what they were supposed to or the incubator went bad, they screwed a market for animals they didn't even have!

Thats like me advertising Albino boa babies at $300 and taking deposits for next year because "i might produce x amount" and scewing it up for the people that have actually produced babies and have taken the time to establish them.

Jon
 
Whew, made it through all 178 threads...for some reason. I'm financially invested into ball python morphs. I'll put that out there first and foremost. I'll also fully admit that when I bought my first couple of morphs, I was solely looking at it as a way to get out of debt (gotta love student loans!). Before I bought those snakes, I couldn't understand why anyone on his/her right mind would spend so much money on, not just a snake, but a ball python! I mean, how "common" and "boring" of a snake can you get, right? Boy did I have a wake up call! I love working with my ball pythons! I never thought I would. I also never get tired of looking at my morphs. Now that I've jumped in with both feet, as it were, and have given myself time to fully look at and appreciate the market, I see things a little more clearly than when I started. I may not be able to use these snakes to pay off all my student debt the first year or two like I had originally planned. However, given enough time, they'll do just that. I have my big projects in line for a few years down the road, and will be making plenty of 'expendable' offspring on my way there.

I see people complaining about the ball market crashing because a certain morph has dropped under $1,000. Guess what, getting even $800 for ONE SNAKE is still a crazy amount of money, especially for something as common as a ball python. Once these snakes are difficult to give away, then you can say the market has crashed. Until then, keep enjoying your profits, even though they might not get you your new car as quickly as you wanted. I know I will.

Okay, so I'm digressing. My point is, this is a breeder's industry designed to make more people into breeders until all the morphs have been realized and the snakes all reach a pet level value. That being said, because everyone in this industry is an individual, no person has ANY right to try to tell another person what he/she can charge for his/her babies. The choice is completely left up to the individual. If I wanted to give away my babies, that is my right.

Last rant: one of the funny things about this thread I've noticed is, if some of you folks succeed in what you're trying to do with MKR, the result might just backfire. If they experience lower sales because of threads like these, they might just lower prices even more! That's what anyone would have to do if offspring can't be sold at the current listed price. So does it then become an endless cycle? Let's nope not.
 
nextworld3 said:
Don't go pre - selling at a ridiculously low prices.
Click to expand...

Most would argue that the comment should be "ridiculously high prices"........ :dgrin:

Griz
 
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