Morph King Mojaves

[Griz]

With all due respect, what exactly have you contributed to this debate, you could copy and paste your respone over and over again, that would save you some typing. Not try to insult your inteligence, but when you toss insults out to all that oppose your views, then say "no insult intended", that is pretty lame. It seems that you are doing most of the whining, I am just offering opinions that you do not agree with.

Casey, you seem to be confusing things. I have not attacked you. Not once. In fact, go read the posts in the BP forums. I specifically praised you. Where the confusion lies between us is that my attacking your logic is not the same thing as attacking you. I have more respect for you than that. If you are taking this personally then maybe you need to step back and reconsider your position.

Nothing here was intended to be an insult to you character. However, as is often the case, sometimes repetition is the only thing that works with some people. The points have been made abundantly clear, now it's up to you to decide which side of the fence you sit on.

Griz

 

[High End Herps Inc]

My view

While not a ball morph breeder I have followed this thread (and many others) concerning the recent market value reality check and "what MKR did". My opinion on this comes not from having invested in ball morphs, but I do have near identical experience with investing heavily in other python morphs (burm, retic, rock) that has had similar outcomes/situations concerning market value.

John Schmitt (Suncoast), Doug Ferrin and Bob Woodward (Griz) have all made very intelligent posts concerning this matter and focusing on only the facts as they are presented. Personally, I think Bob (Griz) hit the nail on the head on page 10 when he eloquently demonstrated how this could really only be about the prices and subsequently, the monies/profits one can make, or in this case, can't make.

Everyone that I have seen in these threads that was upset about what MKR did (as derived from their posts) has some form of an investment in these morphs and obviously expected some form of huge profit in X-amount of time. Then this reality occured and it's beginning to hit home.

Personally, I don't think they should let this bother them. I think that they were unrealistic in not expecting an incredible drop on all of these morphs, co-dominant and recessive alike. When investing in high end animals one MUST anticipate not only a realistic estimated drop in value over X-amount of years, based upon the ability of the species to reproduce and assessed against the market demand but one should also expect the very worst and times their worst-case scenario by at least two.

When the albino tiger retics went from 8 to 15k last year to 2 or 3k this year no one that breeds them complained. When the albino granites went from 2,000 to 500 in the span of 4 years I didn't see anyone coming here and posting that it was a crime. It is the same with albino retics dropping from 2500 last year to about 800 currently. But nobody is panicing. Why? Because I think that we all (giant boid breeders) understand that the prices will always plummet and that it just may take more time to recoup the initial investment. But big deal. So it takes longer. It is what it is. And it happens with every species and morph out there. It is an inevitability.

I think that there was some unrealistic image built around the ball morphs, to the buyers that implied they would stay high forever somehow. Well that's impossible. Even all the simple recessives that are still holding on somewhat respectively, value-wise will plummet soon. Sorry for the reality check but it's inevitable.

I think that the greatest misconception concerning this species (ball) is that they are only capable of tiny clutches and so thus they can't mass produce and therefore the prices will hold for longer than the giant snake species. But here is where this flawed logic goes awry. Ball morphs are tiny and can be housed easily. They are docile and easy to keep and they breed easily and at younger ages.

So, not only have literally hundreds of people bought these to raise and breed but many high level breeders have imported and established huge numbers of balls to create super colonies to mass produce these morphs. Many more people are breeding these in much larger numbers than any other species in herp breeding history.

This doesn't happen with giant retics, burms and rocks because not everyone has the experience or the ability to keep, raise or breed them. And many just don't have the space. So, although they have huge clutches, so few herpers breed these that as a result they are not as mass produced. The irony of the smaller ball species was that its size made it easy for EVERYONE to jump in the game. Every year after this will be exponentially worse, market-wise, than this year.

Everything that is happening right now in the ball morph market I predicted more than 2 years ago. I tried to warn folks to not get too excited or invest too heavily. Few listened.

I say just try to enjoy the hobby and make the best of it and try to forget about the money side of things. Money can be a very evil thing if you allow it to be.

That's just some of my thoughts on this subject.

David Beauchemin

 

[Laura Fopiano]

I find this topic of discusion very intriguing to say the least. Each of have an oppinion, some of us agree and some of us don't.

What it all boils down to is that any particular animal is only going to be worth what another is willing to pay for it, plain and simple. I buy what I like, I strive for quality, and pay the final price.

Some folks like Mercedes and others like Volkswagens. At the end of the day, I have to look at myself and understand that I did the right thing for me. I work with and breed my snakes for the simple joy of it.

I am a very simple woman, that being said, when the first litter of boas are born and the bp eggs pip, I see those little snakes flicking their tongues and cruising their enclosure for the first time. How much they are worth is the last thing to enter my mind. I am more taken by the fact that I was part of the miracle of that process, that I am merely a dating service, that I introduce snake "a" to snake "b" and.....miracles happen!

Rather then discussing the semantics of price fixing, we as a group, should work together on keeping our rights intact, fighting the legislation that would love to squash our industry and take away our ability to breed these fine creatures.

 

[hopedragons]

great post

Great post Laura,
I totally agree with what you said.
These animals are so beautiful and breeding is incredibly exiting.
Im with you 100% . . .
on the other hand, I personaly was a victim to morph kings low mojave prices, and it did hurt.
As someone just getting into ball pythons and on a very small scale, I pick my individuals with care (no hissers, or biters even if they are pretty, and they MUST be pretty). They are my pets and living art first. That said . . . I had a beautiful colorful female mojave 650 grams that I had purchased and was fattening up for months in advance to trade in daytona. I was watching the internet and thought I knew what they were worth. I wanted a hatchling pied male and was willing to add on 1000 cash to my trade. People at the show turned their noses up at me . . . literally! I even asked one guy to please not make that face at me because it was getting depressing. I got the same look at almost every table when I asked about their interest in a trade. It was very depressing. Everyone was saying how mojaves are worth nothing now and they could get hatchlings for 1000 a pair.
I had travled all the way from DC to daytona and was so excited to be coming home with a pied, but I did not. Many people sited the drop in mojave prices as their reason. I was even told that my mojave was the poor mans lesser and that I should not even try to trade her.
I finally stopped looking for a pied and eventually found a table that had some 600 grams and up albino female balls for 3000. they also had a 700gram female mojave (not as pretty as mine) for 3500. I asked about a trade as his mojaves were MORE then his albinos of similar size. I got the same story from this guy too. I eventually traded her for a very pretty albino hatchling. I know that I got the worse end of that deal but my searching was so upsetting that I dont think i was making logical choices at that point.
anyway, I agree that we should concentrate more on our ability to continue in this amazing hobby but I also was able to see first hand the effects of low balling in ball pythons can effect the small time hobbiest and breeder.
thanks for listening to me ramble!!
Jessica

 

[greg4000]

is there any real proof

that mkr doesnt look at these amazing animals the same way? that every time one of thier clutches pip, they dont find it just as amazing as everyone else? is there any proof that they intentionally dropped thier prices to hurt someone, or the industry? aside from cat, and one or two others, all ive read(and yes i read the whole thread)is people complaining about money and how they invested so much, and now they wont be able to reap as high of a profit as they wanted. in my eyes, for someone to buy a pair of hatchlings with the intent to breed to expect the price to be the same after two to three years is assinine. again, no one has proof of sub-par animals, or poor customer service. in fact its been the latter. the main objective may be money, but isnt it also nice to be able to buy some of those ball morphs you couldnt afford before?

 

[viridisnakes]

The reason BP have maintained the high prices is the the big guys have held back literally hundreds (maybe nearing thousands) of saleable offspring each year. Of course the idea was to hold prices. That worked, until now when there are literally hundreds of "breeders". At Daytona, I saw vendors offer female albino 2006 hatchlings for $900 and the customer pass. I am not saying that many many were not sold over the weekend, but it was a pretty good indicator of what was going on. Everyone is complaining about mojaves @ $800 , but they were $1000 on every table and I did not see one sold. Maybe MKR was just being realistic. And please don't blame MKR. Market is based on what people will pay and $1000 was still too high. Honestly with the # of them available $500 is probably too high.

Did anyone go to the BP presentation on Friday night. I think that the presentation on "Why to invest in BP" summed up the current situation and also the times to come. Basically the presentation was for people to get into ball pythons for "MAKING BIG $$$$$$$$". It had the usual blabber about how beautiful they are, small size, ease of care etc, but the overridding message was "get rich, without trying". He even had an example on how single pair of hets could make $250,000 over a decade. WOW. In a few more years there should be litereally thousands of Herp millionaires, RIGHT! I thought there was also some ironic statments. The number one was, ANYONE can make big $$$ by breeding BP. But then he went on to say ONLY purchase from well known established breeders. HMMMMMM. How will Joe Blow make his first mil, when people are only purchasing from the big guys. Well Joe Blow has to sell for less, of course we all know he is only doing this to backstab the big guys. The other ironic statment was there are 240 million potential buyers. I hear this one over and over. Get real. Herps are and will always be a niche market, pied, platty or solid gold, no matter how much AMWAYism we add to the hobby.

 

[Cat_72]

But with passages like this ......

What a bunch of self-righteous doggy-doo .......... it would seem that the original points made by the "capitalists" stand! Just this above quote implies if not overtly states that:

1) Such producers may not "give a damn to those they affect". Like everyone is supposed to be a winner ? Lets just double the prices in Wal-Mart, and to heck with the consumer that now can't afford things ! Higher prices are obviously indicative of a "kinder, gentler, more caring" seller .... "now the extra money please".

2) "Cut-throat" business practices. Call out the price-control folks again, we must need a new law !

3) "Scum in pursuit of the almighty dollar" ! Yeah, just those damn capitalists again.

So, if its just opposing views to a pricing strategy, amazing all the derogatory baggage we attach as inherent to the "other guys" position !

CKA, with regards to this


Amazing, but those that do it "for the sheer love of the animal" also are the ones complaining about the price drop, and then "guessing motives" so as to belittle MKR. Maybe you could "guess" that they took a huge monetary risk, love their animals, and now get to make a lot of money doing what they love !! Nah .......... doesn't fit the desired result.

We agree, though, that capitalism has its pains. This is one of them.

LOL, Jim......you seem to be getting just a little bit closer to going over the edge with every post you make.

Just one quick comment on what you said, not for your sake, but for the sake of those you may once again seek to confuse with your statements. When I referred to "scum", I was directing that comment to MKR's apparent conncetion to Bowles and the likes. Who just happen to be just that....proven scamming scum. But then, you seem to enjoy aligning yourself with scamming scum, so I suppose you wouldn't understand. Nothing self-righteous about any of it, and no guessing to it. I am who I am.

For those who commented about the guys at MKR perhaps loving their animals as well, and enjoy just having them......Joe never even SEES the animals. Last I spoke to them, the animals weren't even in the same STATE as him. He just does the phone sales and counts the money, lol.

Have fun, y'all.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Well Cathy,
I would suggest that "guilt by association", even if presumed, is one of the loads of doogy-doo, aka "crap", that we throw when we have nothing else, and aren't too worried about veracity to begin with ! And without trading further barbs, I thank you for illustrating my points

 

[Griz]

Just one quick comment on what you said, not for your sake, but for the sake of those you may once again seek to confuse with your statements. When I referred to "scum", I was directing that comment to MKR's apparent conncetion to Bowles and the likes.

Cat, and to whomever has made this reference, what proof do you have? Cat, do you really know that they are associated with these 2? I received a very interesting phone call this afternoon from someone that I trust to be in "the know" that stated these comments are outright fabrications. That the only dealings that MKR has had with these 2 is in selling them a few animals. Nothing more and nothing less.

The only time I have heard these comments is from individuals who are upset over their prices. Coincidence? You tell me.

Griz

 

[Chameleon Company]

Damn Bob ! I have no stomach for the use of the words "apparent", or "guessing", or of the guilt-by-associatation innuendos, etc., in trying to smear others from the comfort of hiding behind a keyboard. If you don't have the facts ...... maybe best to say nothing? What's the lingo .... STFU or something?

 

[Casey Hulse]

What's the lingo .... STFU or something?

Please do Jim. Thank you

 

[Chameleon Company]

Casey and others,
If you have the evidence of wrong-doing, then post it. If you hoped to come here and undermine the integrity of a vendor in the capitalist system of things, or bitch that capitalism isn't fair ... someone help me, but what's the cost of a one-way ticket to France for our thin-skinned friend?

I have to say how refreshing it has been to see folks post in this thread, some of them highly respected but infrequent posters, who stand to gain nothing with the drop in some BP prices, take the time to post recognition of the competitive market-place.

Parlez-vous Francais ?

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Let me see if I understand this thread. People are upset that someone who paid THEIR money for the parents, and took THEIR time and effort to breed them, are setting THEIR prices for the offspring??

Unreal......

 

[Chameleon Company]

Lloyd,
Your comprehension is perfect !

 

[Cat_72]

Damn Bob ! I have no stomach for the use of the words "apparent", or "guessing", or of the guilt-by-associatation innuendos, etc., in trying to smear others from the comfort of hiding behind a keyboard. If you don't have the facts ...... maybe best to say nothing? What's the lingo .... STFU or something?

Jim, at least Griz has no need to resort to immature comments like, "STFU"....and I have no idea what the "CKA" stands for in your previous post either. You have no stomach for the word "apparent", but think it's Ok to resort to telling people to shut the up? How cute.

I KNOW for a fact that Joe lives in a different state from his "beloved" animals, and I know for a fact the way he has smeared many other good breeders. He doesn't brag about his beautiful animals, he doesn't even SEE them He brags about how much money he'll make.

Griz simply stated that he heard that the idea of MKR working with Knowles came from someone he trusted to be "in the know", yet that's "fact enough" for you. I only know what I have heard directly from Joe's mouth per phone conversation, and what I have seen typed by Joe or Wes's hand. Other than my phone conversations, it's all out there for those who want to see it to see.

Perhaps you should take your own advice once in awhile, Jim.....you appear to be ranting again.

 

[Cat_72]

Let me see if I understand this thread. People are upset that someone who paid THEIR money for the parents, and took THEIR time and effort to breed them, are setting THEIR prices for the offspring??

Unreal......

Nope Lloyd, it appears you don't. Perhaps you should read a bit more of the thread. This is what some folks seem to be convinced this whole issue is about, they simply can't see past their own capitalistic ideals to see what's really at the heart of the matter for many.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Cat,
If you go back to the reference in which I used the letters "CKA". I know this is getting complex .... here goes .... take a deep breath ...... I was quoting the previous poster who goes by the user name CKA ..... I don't know what it means!
And if I am a little contempuous of the same usual suspects using the BOI to try to trash someone using everything but the facts ..... well damn, I'm guilty as charged ! And again, I thank you for the continued participation. Let the viewing audience decide.

 

[Cat_72]

Cat,
If you go back to the reference in which I used the letters "CKA". I know this is getting complex .... here goes .... take a deep breath ...... I was quoting the previous poster who goes by the user name CKA ..... I don't know what it means!
And if I am a little contempuous of the same usual suspects using the BOI to try to trash someone using everything but the facts ..... well damn, I'm guilty as charged ! And again, I thank you for the continued participation. Let the viewing audience decide.

I apologize, I didn't notice the poster going by the name CKA, I try to notice and go by their real name as much as possible, just seems more "human".

Let me see....anything but the facts. Recent example...when others commented that those at MKR may find as much joy in being around their animals as I do and that it might not be about "just the money", I gave the FACT that Joe has never so much as seen most of his animals. I'm sure he adores them from half a country away....in his mind....from the quick glimpses he's had of them in pictures. LOL.

Jim, I could lay out all of the facts 6 inches from your nose in black and white, or even staple it to your forehead, and you'd still be rambling about no proof. All one has to do is look back at all of the people scammed by a certain has-been porn queen you seem so fond of to understand that.

 

[connorrm]

I have read most of the thread so if I missed something I apologize. I just have to throw in my useless .02 cents. I think that most of the BP morphs are over priced. Mojaves, Spiders etc; sorry they should all cost the same as a pastel. They are co-dom traits and there are just as many around as pastels. The recessive traits obviously take more time to mature and pair up etc; so I can see the higher price on them. I am not taking a popularity stance on this one. If I had mojaves I would sell them for 500 bucks and be done with it. I am just waiting for the prices on albino bp to drop a little more. I just want ONE and I see no reason to spend 1500 dollars on a pet snake that really you can't do anything with. At least when I shell out 1500 dollars on a german shepard we can do agility, hunt, field trials, show etc;

 

[Chameleon Company]

To the reader, Cat writes:

All one has to do is look back at all of the people scammed by a certain has-been porn queen you seem so fond of to understand that.

And then there's this:

Jim, I could lay out all of the facts 6 inches from your nose in black and white, or even staple it to your forehead, and you'd still be rambling about no proof.

While I agree with those that have asked "where's the proof", and I have certainly mentioned the lack of facts, I do not believe that I have used the word "proof" much less rambled about it. Cat, that you cannot stick to the facts (or lack of them) in this thread, and must reach for falsehoods and mischaracterizations .......... maybe we are starting to zero in on the real folly here ! I thank you again You are the gift that keeps giving !