Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

[pdragon]

Jaques,

"He bought them in from us in May 2009"

Your time line is all screwed up. I imported your animals in october 2010.

"Jay that is 7 months later and no issues"

two months later

"I noticed a small spot in one of our juveniles. For the fear of it being something lethal I euthanized the dragon and sent the lesion to the pathologists. The report came back as NORMAL PIGMENTATION!"

If it were normal, why are you telling some people to be careful of the"black spot disease" with the witblits.

"So the 'sick' spotted male still reproduced. "

reproduced BEFORE i noticed the spots

"One with the skin 'problem' and one with respiratory problems. Neither of these two problems can be linked to the Witblits morph per se"

really think about this statement. Only your dragon developed the spots. Only your dragons had respiratory problems.

"infertility"

yes your dragons had serious fertility issues. Both of the male witblits had very short hemipenes, like stumps. The one that eventually bred after numerous tries still couldn't fertilize an entire clutch(probably from having such short hemipenes). The third under the dachiu's care was also having the exact same problems.


I got one of your witblits to breed and the yellow male. Shortly after that i noticed black spotting developing on one of your dragons. This is when i contacted you. At first, I thought it was paradox, but it later developed into a bleeding, cracking, raised scale looking skin cancer. It only developed on the top part of it's body, the underside was completely free of it. The dragons were partially blind. They also acted lanky/goofy when they walked around. The third witblits was sent to rob and vickie. They experienced the same problem with theirs, minus the black patches. This animal had continous respiratory issues, and was never able to breed. Shortly after the black spotting developed on my witblits, they started to lose weight and waste away very quickly. They also both came down with respiratory issues. This is all a sign of weakness. I very very rarely have respiratory issues with any other of my dragons.

The last time i contacted you I said to you that you should grow up all your dragons and see what is going on with them because others are not going to take it as easy as I have. This is also when I mentioned that I will probably scrap the whole project. I ended up doing so because my hets came from that back spotted male. I later ended up starting off over again with hets from another breeder.

You talk to marco from ghost dragons? He spent 5k on one of your dragons and it died. He never got any sort of replacement/refund. Have you REALLY spoken to any of the others who purchased from you? I call b.s. on your statements.

1). fertility issues/short hemipenes
2). very lean(teardrop shape) body structure
3). skin issues
4). lanky/goofy walk
5). partial blindness
6). eggs taking longer than normal to hatch(weakness)
7). wasting away
8). very slow growth
9). upper respiratory problems
10). small adult size
11). eggs taking longer than normal to hatch(weakness)

That makes 10 Jaques

Josh

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

I already started a continuation on the BOI because all of this def. belongs there http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319776 not here.

 

[hhmoore]

Please mods at this stage I think all comment is fair so do not block it.

I have already explained what is not acceptable in a discussion area. I'm sorry, but your opinion that all is fair doesn't change that. Things won't be "blocked"; but infraction will be given & people will be removed, as necessary. There is a BOI thread that can deal with the claims that are not suitable to this section. I realize that this will result in a bit of separation of the topic, and that is unfortunate in some ways; but it isn't THAT difficult to figure out. I'm willing to allow a bit of latitude regarding what goes where; but I suggest that people consider the content of their posts, and which thread is a better fit.

Jay I am still waiting for solid evidence of your absurd statements. You have made these accusations that Witblits is riddled with problems. I would like to know what these problems are?

Discussion of the problems here is fine, but it is difficult to do without making accusation....getting into proof of those claims is difficult in this section because it treads in BOI territory

If you make these comments you must be able to prove it.

careful....

 

[mikepanzarella]

wow guys im am sorry about my post before must have been looking at the photos of zeros or silverbacks from josh (cant tell them apart can only look in amazement)
as for the pics on her site and fb i guess you wouldnt post the ones that had problems up
guys again im sorry

 

[witblits]

["He bought them in from us in May 2009"

Your time line is all screwed up. I imported your animals in october 2010.

"Jay that is 7 months later and no issues"

two months later]

OK looks like both of us got it a bit wrong. Went through the records again. The AWB is dated 05/10/2009. Thats why I thought it was May. Turns out it was the 5th of Oct... And 2009 yes. That is indeed 5 nonths later than what I thought.

The rest of the dates are all more or less right I think.

 

[witblits]

[wow guys im am sorry about my post before must have been looking at the photos of zeros or silverbacks from josh (cant tell them apart can only look in amazement)
as for the pics on her site and fb i guess you wouldnt post the ones that had problems up
guys again im sorry]

Mike I am glad you mentioned this. Yes no one would post a pic of unhealthy looking dragons on their for sale page right. If I did have any sick/unhealthy/riddled with issues dragons then I would also not post them. This I think is normal. The point is the ones on our fb page and website are all healthy. I have only sold healthy animals to cleints. I have never sold an unhealthy animal.

The fact that two (out of a whole lot of them) of the Witblits developed problems a few months after they have been sold has never been a secret. I just can't see how people hold the breeder accountable for a strange thing like the skin problem. Look if all the Witblits developed skin problem the yes sure then one can say that witblits are riddled with skin problems. The same goes for the respiratory infection.

Almost every single breeder on this forum should kbow at least the basics of diseases and immunity. Given the fact that there a millions of dragons in USA and only thousands in SA one can safely assume that there are likely more diseases of beatrded dragons in USA. For example we are free of Adenovirus (and btw Jay this is why we are not allowed to legally import). Whe na naive dragon comes into contact with a 'new' disease/pathogen then the chance of that disease manifesting as servere illness is more likely. Perhaps there is some respiratory pathogen in USA that these dragons couldnot fend of? Who knows.

Then there is the very interesting fact about the link between the nervous system and the skin. Most of you wont know this unless you are adoctor/vet/histologist/embryologist etc.
During very early development of the embryo the nervous tissue and skin develop from the same cells. This means that a major defect in the skin could be associated with abnormal neurological system.
There is no doubt that witblits has a type of skin defect. It is not normal for a bearded dragon to be without pattern. The same goes for translucents, hypos, albinos etc. Even citrus, inferno is not normal. The reality is that there have been no major neurological abnormalities noted with colour varieties or paternless animals. It seems that the 'defect' is rather as a result of abnormal enzyme function and not a developmental problem as early on.
This has never been proven/disproven though so the possibility of the neurological signs/gait problems that Josh mentioned could be as a result of this. It is most unlikley though as then it would likely have been a problem from birth. (I just thought I'd share this as it is important to know what the potential problem can be with new morphs)

We have done our homework and have been very critical about the the health of our witblits. We have never sold a sick animal! This is a promise and a guarantee!

 

[mikepanzarella]

In an earlier post you stated you had sold to 8 people and only one had problems
Now it's 2 buyers have had known problems
Is that 3 out of 8 people and now knowing josh is having problems is that 50% of your clients having problems
It would be nice to know because that would be a large percentage of loss
More then the original 10-15% I thouht

 

[witblits]

I sent out a survey to all the buyers. I am waiting for their replies. As soon as all of them have replied I will give some feedback.

 

[JimD]

I sent out a survey to all the buyers. I am waiting for their replies. As soon as all of them have replied I will give some feedback.

I need to ask this for everyone.
Did ALL of your customers receive this survey?

 

[witblits]

JimD. I emailed it to all of them yes. I hope they all received it.

 

[snowgyre]

Just out of curiosity, is there any possibility that those black marks could indicate UV poisoning? The witblits may be patternless but they are clearly not albinos, so an overproduction of melanin leading to black dots (which the pathology report agrees were 'normal' pigment) could be a sign that these dragons may be oversensitive to UV? I've never owned bearded dragons, but I have heard of UV poisoning/burns in other reptiles.

 

[witblits]

Snowgyre, that is a good question! This is the sort of questions that we should ask. And that is what I am trying to get at. The whole point should be;
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT DRAGON AND WHY DID IT DIE?

[Bare with me. I am getting the idea that the language barrier is complicating things and people aren't quite understanding my comments. I am going to state my facts one by one and with the aid of some evidence.]

So lets focus on the spotted Witblits...

I have asked Josh several times whether he had the dragon at a veterinarian and what the diagnosis and treatment was. From the lack of him replying we can assume the dragon was never at a vet. Thus we DON'T KNOW what was wrong with it and why it died. It is thus very brave to say that because this individual dragon had a skin disease that all Witblits dargons have skin problems.

I have given my differantials to Josh soon after he told me about the dragon.

This was his mail on 21 Jun 2010:
" Hi,

Have you seen any black spotting on your witblits dragons? One of them i got from you is starting to develop clusters and spots of jet black pigment only on the top part of his body. I origionally thought he had a fungus but i would have seen it on his belly too. The silverback also has a black spot on his back that has been there since i got him. I will send you some pics later next week. Pretty weird stuff.

Josh"

Josh then sent me the picture of the Silverback with the following message:

"Here is a pic of the silverback. you can barely see the spot at the base of his tail on top. I have also seen this with transluscents. Allessandro has one from me he calls "dalmata". His is the most extreme form i have ever seen. I have only seen one or two spots on my stuff ever.

Josh"

This was my reply:
"Hi Josh
Yeah that 'spot' does look a little bit suspicious. I also doubt that
it is fungus. It might be some sort of cancer (like a melanoma). Who
knows if these 'light skinned' dragons are more susceptable to things
like that. I doubt that it is because two dragons sort of rules cancer
out. And then I would definately expect some of mine to have similar
'lesions' since I keep them out in the African sun quite alot. Mine
have no black spots. We have to remember that dragons have quite alot
of black pigment (like the black beard and so), but someway they hide
this black under normal circumstances. Perhaps some parts of their
skin have more melanophores than other parts and now during breeding
season these areas also light up? If this is true then I should see
something similar in my males ina bout a month or two when I wake them
from their sleep. I have seen pictures of those dalmatia's. ...(rest of mail left out due to not applicable) "

Ok so in this mail you can see that I have considered skin cancer (and UV poisoning) as a differential for the Silverback. But due to the fact that one of the Silverbacks AND a Witblits has black spots cancer was unlikely. (Yes there are infectious causes of cancer but I am unaware of any in bearded dragons.) Remember I haven't seen the picture of the Witblits yet so have no idea of the type and extent of the spots. Another reason why I excluded cancer at that stage was because we keep our dragons outside most of the year and have seen no skin lesions of any kind. The South African sun is harsh! We often get extremely high measurements on our Solarmeter but even on these days the dragons seem to just soak up the rays.

I also had my doubts whether it was a fungal disease althought one would have to culture to exclude it.

On 3 July 2010 Josh sent me the picture of the Witblits

This was my reply on the 4th:

"Hi
WOW! I didn't expect this. I thought they were going to be little
spots... I have no idea what that is. It almost looks like little
burns. Perhaps from the UV light? I have had dragons in the past that
burned under a poor quality light. But then you would have seen it in
some of the other dragons as well. Also in animals in the same
enclosure if it was only that specific light that is 'abnormal'. Jeez
Josh I have no idea. Keep on taking pictures of him. This would help
monitor their progression. Hopefully they aren't serious. None of my
dragons have anything like this. When did he start to develop these
marks?
Other than the spots he sure looks in good condition and a nice colour too! ...(rest of mail left out due to not applicable) "

At this stage the witblits does NOT seem to be sick in any degree. In fact he looks quite healthy (except for the spots).

I was thus NOT concerned that there is a problem with the morph because it had a skin problem. It seemed obvious that the skin problem was due to something unknown, not the morph.

Josh replied with:

"Hi, It definately looks weird. There is no skin damage, thats why i ruled out fungus/burns. Plus the other male is kept exactly the same and he has no spots. The spots started to develop about 2 weeks ago. When he is comfortable, the spots are barely visible. When i put a female with him or feed, the spots come out jet black in a matter of seconds.
I will send you more pics. Thanks, Josh"

We thus considered the possibility of 'UV poisoning'/burns but then he would likely have picked up the problem in several cages with the same lights. I can't remember if I asked him which lights he used but I don't think lighting is the problem here. Just for the record; we use ZooMed 10.0 tubes for our hatchlings and growers and ExoTerra 10.0 coils for our adults. We have never had issues with these lights. The lights I referred to in the mail was from a local brand that I can not mention here. That incident happened several years before. In hindsight I recall that not all the lights of that brand was faulty and even in the same batch there were differences. So perhaps UV burns could be the cause. The only way to diagnose this would be a skin biopsy!

Something that makes fungus/bacteria/burns unlikley at this point is the fact that the spots seem to differ in intensity. This is what made me think; PIGMENT! It seems these spots acted in the same way as the beard of a normal dragons.

For 2 months I heard nothing from Josh. No updates, no pictures, nothing.

Then on 14 September 2010 Josh told me in an email with another subject matter that in a 'by the way' way:

"(part left out). I may scratch the whole witblits project all together and focus on the silverback line. I have lost 2 out of the 3 witblits. They get to sub-adult size, then dramatically lose weight, then respiratory problems start to take over. The last one is starting to look thin. (part left out)."

My first reaction is that he was fooling/joking with me. I thought that since he hasn't sent me any updates in 2 months that everything was in order, that the Witblits male healed up, but now he is ionly joking with me.

This was my reply:

"(part left out) It is very very hard for me to believe that they have died. I mean you emailed me pics of them just the other day and they looked healthy and `fat`. Now you say they thin out and die from respiratory problems. Also the fact that you have lost two and I have lost zero. Doesn't add up. You say they are sub adult size when they are sick but then just the other day you said they were breeding which would make them adults. Man this seems like a joke. Are you playing with me or what?
Man I hope you are...
If not then tell me what did the veterinarian`s PM report say? Surely you would have done a PM on such an expensive animals.
(part left out)
I just still can't think that all of a sudden two dragons just died.
(part left out)"

He sent back:
"Hi,

I am in no way messing with you. Also, i'm not trying to get something from you for nothing.

I sent the smaller witblits to "X" (name left out). That animal grew to breeding size, then quickly went downhill. You can ask them yourself if you want.

The witblits with the black spotting was the second one to go downhill. His skin condition looked like some sort of cancer. ''X'' from ''X'' dragons (left out) has seen the dragon in person. Ask him if you like. Same problem as the one sent to "X"... lost weight, then came down with upper respiratory problems. I have a photo of him that i will send to you. You can tell me what you think. Also saved his body so that I can have some tests done on him.

(part left out). I'm taking it pretty well, don't you think? I realize some things are a gamble. If this same situation were to happen to anyone else, they would be on the forums telling the world, which I gurantee would destroy your reputation/morph.

I'm letting you know what is going on with your dragons. If you want to deny that there is some potential problems, that's your choice. I could say nothing at all, but i'm trying to help you out wether you believe it or not.

Good luck,
Josh"

OK so here I knew that Josh wasn't fooling around. He seemed quite upset. Very understandable of course! I contacted the first "X". They never replied.

So the Witblits with the spots died. Up to this point haven't received any pictures of him! Josh thought is seemed like some skin cancer. After only receiving pictures from him TODAY, 27 May 2012 I also think cancer is the most likley cause of this dragons problems.

ALSO SAVED HIS BODY SO THAT I CAN HAVE SOME TESTS DONE ON HIM.
Great! Still waiting for these test results though... Given the fact that you have not supplied any answers yet we will still have to come to a evidence based conclusion.

I have not denied the fact that there wasn't something wrong. I was waiting for evidence. I mean two dragons died. They were expensive dragons. More than enough reason to get a pathologist to have a good look at them.

On 21 Sept I sent him this mail:

"Man this is a real shock to me! I know it doesn't help saying it but for what it is worth, I am realy sorry for your loss.
Please send me some pictures of the dragons. Ones where they are in their last days would be of help.
I am wondering if they did not pick up some disease over in the US, something that we in SA do not have, thus making them more susceptible. Also the fact that they are recessive would make them more prone to disease or other problems.
(part left out).
My plan is not to give insults by saying my animals are still alive and yours are dead. You have much more experience in keeping them than me and in no way am I blaming you for their death. I am just trying to figure this out here. It is just odd that mine are all alive and yours not.
There could be many reasons and that is what I must figure out. They are all relatively the same age, but I guess nine is still smaller than what tours were. Perhaps it is a size related problem and not age related. That would mean mine would go backwards in the future. Tell me what size (lengths and weights) were yours when they got sick and when they died?
How is the last male doing?
I recommend you get a PM done on them.
Bye"

I haven't heard from Josh after this again. My line of thought was quite rational I think; he got the PM/post mortem/autopsy done, the results showed something like cancer/parasites/lung infection or something that clearly isn't morph related. He cut his losses. But was still upset.

I would think that after losing two (and seems possibly a third) such expensive animals one would be in more contact with the breeders!?

It seemed the common problem was they became thin, then died from respiratory problems. The one also had a skin problem of yet unknown cause.
The most common cause for bearded dragons becoming emaciated is internal parasites!

Josh do you know if you have Adenovirus in your flock/colony/group of dragons?
Josh did you ever have one of these dragons tested for Adenovirus?
Josh did you or "X" ever take one of these dragon to the veterinarian?
Josh did you have an autopsy done on the 'spotted' Witblits as I recommended?
Josh did any of the witblits that died receive any treatment of any sort?

Guys I am sorry but to me it seems like I am being conned here. I am made out to be the bad guy.

I find it incredibly weird that I had to hear from a third party that the third dragon died. I also find it extremely weird that none of the other breeders that lost witblits ever contacted me about this. I also find it very strange that for so long Josh hasn't made a huge issue out of this but now all of a sudden it is!?

Ek ruit n vrot rot!

Snowgyre. SO AFTER ALL THIS AND 2 YEARS LATER WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT WITBLITS AND WHY IT DIED. It seems like it is cancer and I am to blame. I will go down in history as the veterinarian that breeds cancerous dragons...

 

[witblits]

Seems the pictures were not attached. Hope they are now.

I also forgot to mention another point:

A while after Josh sent me the pics of the Silverback with the spot I noticed a similar spot on one of our Witblits. The spot was still small but for the sake of trying to maybe determine what was going on in Josh's animals I put this dragon to sleep. The spot was small. I removed a part of it and sent it to the pathologists.

Already some of you have said I conveniantly lost it... Hah! But luckily I still have the dragon preserved in formalin. I am going to see a world renowned wildlife/zoo pathologist on Tuesday. I am sure she will be able to get some answers from it. I will also take the photos of Josh's Witblits so she can have a look at them. Perhaps she knows what would cause that.

Whether the spot on my one Witblits and the spot/s on Josh's Silverback and Witblits is the same lesion we would never now. Quite unlikley I guess. But at this stage any answer is a good one.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Jaques,

There was never anything wrong with the silverback.It was too early to tell on everything. I am putting your post on the BOI you should stop trying to avoid it.

 

[Sushi Dragons]

Could you not request another copy of the pathology report? How long is a specimen viable for testing when preserved in formalin?

 

[witblits]

Jaques,

There was never anything wrong with the silverback.It was too early to tell on everything. I am putting your post on the BOI you should stop trying to avoid it.

Jay, Josh said himself that the Silverback had a black spot! You can see the black spot on the pic. That is clear as daylight. Didn't you already place it on the BOI?

Could you not request another copy of the pathology report? How long is a specimen viable for testing when preserved in formalin?

Rachel I tried to get the report from them on Saturday. They should have a copy of it somewhere in their system but without a reference number they couldn't trace it.

Fresh samples in formalin is viable for years. What is important though is that the sample is fresh. A rotten putrefied sample will be preserved as rotten and putrefied. Histopathology on these samples will not reveal anything. It is also very important to place small samples in the formalin. Placing a whole dragon in formalin would not work, even if fresh. By the time the formalin has soaked into the dragon the 'insides' would already be rotten. Thus with large dragons place the individual organs in the formalin or pieces thereof. With a small dragon you can cut open the belly an jaw and drop the whole thing in formalin. Try to cut open section of the gut so the formalin fills it.

I think I we will get better answers from the zoo pathologist. She only works with wildlife/exotic/zoo animals. The other pathologists that I sent the first sample to deal with animals and humans on a mass level.

I am looking forward to my trip to the city on Tuesday!

 

[witblits]

Jay. Seems we posted at around the same time. I have made a post in the BOI. It takes me a while to type these things as I go through my old emails at the same time.

Brother I am throwing facts (as evident by the actual emails exchanged by me and Josh) and science at you and you are still fighting it.

Jeez man!

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

What facts and what science? Where? I have seen nothing of the sort.

Like I said when josh sent you the infor about the silverback it was too early to tell. Nothing was wrong.

 

[pdragon]

snowgyre- That is a good question. I put the witblits under a single 24 inch 5.0 exo-terra bulb. The dragon was about 16 inches away from it, so it's not getting too much uv.

The silverback has a little cluster of black scales. He has had it since I aquired him, and it has never progressed. Silverback is a simple recessive, patternless mutation. The silver color masks over his existing color, but sometimes pigment will pop through. I have also seen this with some of the second generation silverbacks. If you look at the witblit with the spotting, it's more of a brown color than black. It's also raised, cracking, and has yellow around the edges.

Jaques- I don't have a pathology report, but you claim to have done it to one of your witblits with spots. Convienent for you that you claim the dragon is clean, but have no proof.

Josh

 

[The Outsider]

Thank god I read this thread before buyin a wit lolz